English Blackball Pool Federation

There has been previous debates about whether pool is even a sport but assuming it is and it has a physical aspect there should be the ability to have a female league especially with prize money involved. The trouble with this "it isn't gender affected" - how would we know for sure and why are we ignoring the experience of the female organisers and players who say that it is? That in itself seems highly sexist. There is a clear physical aspect along with a strategic aspect.

Personally I feel any competition organisers should be legally allowed to have women since birth type criterias (including rare disorders of sexual development who have been living female since birth) without having the burden of unequivocal scientific proof / legal battles. The individual concerned had been playing as a man up to their early twenties with all the benefits of that. Pool is a very masculine sport and female categories are important. NB the other category is "open" so they would not be left unable to play. NB I've seen woman players in "mens" tournaments, this isn't unprecedented.

Ironically perhaps I know quite a bit about pool because ex partner was a keen player...

Is RMW arguing for pool to be mixed sex, and that there is no need for a women's category?

Or is the argument that there should be a women's category but some men with special gender feelings should be allowed to participate in it?

And honestly in my opinion, until there is solid, peer reviewed evidence that there is no benefit to males competing in a women's sport then sex segregated sports should persist. The burden of proof shouldn't be for organisations to prove the differences in male v females in a particular sport, The status quo exists until it is changed. Not the other way around.

But surely there are still advantages to the average male in terms of being (on average) taller with a wider arm-span etc, which would give them a wider range of available shots in terms of longer reach across the table etc?

Strength might not be a relevant issue but male physiology compared to women's would still convey an advantage.

i.e. the EA applies to snooker but not pool. I'm no expert but aren't they very similar sports?

I admit that my knowledge of the games is little more than "poking balls with a big stick" but if RMW is suggesting that the EA2010 doesn't/shouldn't apply then I'd say he's wrong. It applies regardless, and not just on the basis of physical strength.

But I don't like the idea of a 'line' as RMW suggests, and some sports are one side of it and some aren't.

I'm fine with that. The problem they have is coming up with a reason why Haynes should be in while other males are out. If there's no male advantage, on what grounds can males be excluded?

Sex discrimination not generally legal - sports with male advantages are an exception.

If pool has no male advantage, then having female tournaments at all is legally dodgy. They need to come up with an argument that lets Haynes in to the category, not destroys it.

If you want to increase female interest and participation in the sport, as UP claim, this hardly seems the best way to set about it. Fairness is/should be the primary reason for having separate women's comps.

Well I've said before that I believe male advantage in pool is marginal, but real. And less than snooker and most other sports. But I don't like the idea of a 'line' as RMW suggests, and some sports are one side of it and some aren't. They are chipping away at what they see as a 'wedge'case IMO.

I mean it's not necessarily the obvious physical safety aspects that you find in boxing or rugby. In chess there are about 2000 grandmasters in the world, and 40 of them are women.

That's why, if you want to watch women excel, you need a separate women's category, and if the pool of competitors is that small, it doesn't take too many males identifying into the women's category to subvert its whole purpose.

On the contrary, pool generally requires the most delicate of touches.

Which might suggest that it would favour women slightly. Note I am not trying to argue for TWS!

I’ve emailed too.

The differences between snooker and pool are considerable.The 'power' arguments apply much more in snooker than pool. Everyone talks about the break in pool, but normally, that's the only time the ball is hit very hard. On the contrary, pool generally requires the most delicate of touches. And on a table 12 foot long, reach considerations apply much more in snooker. As anyone who has ever stood by a snooker table knows, they are so much bigger than they look on the telly!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-pool-player-harriet-haynes-ban-b2653361.html

There is some explanation here.

It gets complicated because of different govering bodies, but in snooker women have always been able to enter open category championships. It's just that they've never got very far.

Allison Fisher is one of the best women playing snooker and pool of all time, and she's hardly ever got past a qualifying round match playing against men.

Hence the separate women's championships, which are the only way we ever get to see exceptional women shine.

Just had response for court asking for my full name. That was quick and I'm optimistic :-)

Did RW just argue that "Many sports are gender selected. Tennis - wld be easy to make a case is gender selective due to fast serve. Ave men have a strength advantage over W. So difficult to argue my case in tennis. In chess, which isnt uncontroversial, as world chess decided TW cldnt play"
ergo Tennis can exclude men but chess shouldn't.
Then follows with "Sports will be either side of boundary and I'll argue it's on 1 side. I wont argue re snooker which I'd argue on wrong side of boundary."
RW But this is pool.

i.e. the EA applies to snooker but not pool. I'm no expert but aren't they very similar sports?

Since the league offered an open category it is hard to imagine what argument RMW has available to themself, unless of course it is TWAW, which all of us non lawyers know is not the law.

Does the Open category actually forbid women from entering? If not, one of the solutions is for a few biological women to enter and this would kill the Transwomen's argument about being discriminated against stone dead.

BTW my previous post which got deleted has now been restored.

Hello new thread. Following this with interest. I could have gone and watched HH last night (was it?), then; local to me! I'm unsure quite why HH is sueing EBPF, I thought people who had signed up to the UP roster, like HH, didn't play in the black-ball events. So how much skin she has in the game, I don't know. Well, UP wanted a blaze of publicity to 'bring pool into a new era', and they've sure got that, but perhaps not in the way they hoped.

I also tried phoning court but it goes unanswered then bizarrelt says the phone number is unavailable