Message for all parents of kids in Scouts! (Ireland)

Scouting and guiding organisations in different countries have very different rules.

UK is very clear on segregating sleeping and changing spaces for over and under 18s, and keen on separating between different youth age groups. Everyone has to have option for privacy for changing. Any further segregation beyond that is up to the youth, their parents and their leaders.

Whereas another country will have an absolute ban on male / female sharing sleeping or changing spaces (even if married!) and mandate that there’s an adult in each youth sleeping /changing area for supervision.

Makes international events challenging. The OP is referencing scouting Ireland.

DS is in Cubs and has been doing camping and sleepovers 3-4 times a year since Beavers. At all times the staff (of whatever gender they want to be called) sleep separately from the children, and the children get changed in the toilets or tents (whichever they prefer). I volunteer at the camps sometimes and the adults tents are well away from the childrens, and the adults also change in their own toilets.

Scouts is for 10.5 to 14 years so, additional needs aside, what child of this age would require an adult to be present when they are getting changed?

Scouting Ireland.

Which the OP fails to mention.
UK Scouting has a very different approach.

Nothing, because I don’t have a problem with scout leaders being male, female or a mix of the two.

No. If you read the article she linked it very clearly states that delegates at a safeguarding meeting were told that men claiming to be women must now be treated as women. It explained the impact on safeguarding single sex spaces:
"Scouters were told that, moving forward, Scouting Ireland would solely recognise individuals according to their “chosen” gender – ie, the sex by which they choose to identify. In practice this would mean that Scouting Ireland would consider an adult biologically male person who “identifies” as female to be the equivalent of an adult woman.
Where the issue arises, attendees told Gript, is where Scouting Ireland requires male and female adults to supervise children or to manage events.
For example, in the existing Scouting Ireland code of behaviour, there is a requirement on page 9 for “gender appropriate supervision” by Scouters of scouting groups. Further, on page 10, that requirement for “gender appropriate supervision” is specifically extended to “circumstances including changing rooms, sleeping areas, etc”."

I know that scouting, guides etc do a great job. It's just a shame that the leadership is so caught up in promoting gender ideology to the detriment of children - who should be the central concern.

But that's not what OP told everyone.

100% this.

This is in fact unlike Guiding where girls and leaders CAN and do share sleeping and washing spaces. Last time I took Rainbows away we were in a glamping site and we had a Brownies tent, a leaders tent, and a tent with 4 Rainbows and two leaders.
My son (4 at the time) was in my tent and had to use the gents loo on his own but a man could come along and say he's a woman and use the female toilets.
I am not aware that this has changed since I was expelled as my daughter has chosen to remain in Scouting. Her troop has only male leaders but they are old fashioned enough to understand when I say she must be in single SEX tents and dorms.

Of course that's the reality - as it is for most child activities with adults frankly ignoring much of the political ideology.

BUT insisting that men who claim to be women must be seen as women by children is doing 2 things.

1. Gaslighting children that sex change is possible and making it impossible for a child to express any concerns (sacred caste who can't be challenged or you'll be called a bigot)
2. Getting a child centred organisation involved in age inappropriate queer theory political activism

A link to the Scouts (UK) safeguarding code.

https://www.scouts.org.uk/volunteers/staying-safe-and-safeguarding/safe-scouting-cards/safeguarding-code-of-conduct-for-adults-yellow-card/

Thank you for being a voice of reason. My children are both involved in scouts. DS and DD. The leaders make it very clear at sleepovers / camps etc that they are not sleeping in the same room / tent as the children and do not supervise them in the bathrooms.

The reality is, at camp, most kids return in the clothes they left home in, having spent the entire weekend in the same outfit, including sleeping in it. And they have an amazing time.

Maybe concerned posters should try and find out how these things ACTUALLY work instead of spreading misinformation.

Thank you. It did sound odd. Why the need for them to be nude in front of anyone?

They don't. The OP is sensationalism.

Children on camp would not ordinarily need any support changing or showering.

If a child has additional needs, a care plan would be agreed for camp.

That's awful. I don't really see why any adult 'needs' to supervise children who are school age undressing? Unless obviously you're their family member and parent. Even then there's no 'need' after a certain age. Unless the child is disabled?

Why do they ever need to get naked in scouts?

At one time (it may have changed recently) the % of abuse cases happening in private tutoring sessions was horrendous.
As we know, predators make a beeline for children's activities where they find any opportunity to abuse. The Scouts had a truly appalling record of abuse cases and maybe 20 / 30 years ago made strenuous attempts to rectify the situation with in depth safeguarding policies and training. Recent court cases show that predators still manage to infiltrate the Scouts and abuse children - but to be fair that's the same in all places where children gather.

Which is why it's infuriating to see Ireland's scouts trying to openly decriminalise voyeurism in this way. And speaks to a grim quality of leadership that enables it.

@thenoisiesttermagant No man would be in a girls dorm.

Well since there's a minimum number of two adults present, plus a certain ratio to be met he should never be the only adult. Male or female.

Scouting ratios are a lot more regulated than a lot of other activities. Take music lessons... just dropping your child off at an adults home, with no one else present.

Mielikki Why don't you offer your suggestion for that situation instead of being confrontational to Allthegood names?
What would you do?

The other problem with this sort of ideologically based policy is that it gives all the homophobic & transphobic bigots the excuse to say that all homosexual men are fundamentally a danger to all children. Back to the good old "all gay men are paedophiles" garbage and bigotry.

And they think they're being "progressive," when actually, such policies hurt the very people they're trying to protect.

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen so what should a troop with no female leaders do? Never go on camp? Say girls can’t go on camp?

‘Yep, all the leaders at my DS’s troop were women. What were they supposed to do - never run a camp? Only allow girls to go on camp?‘

I presume you mean the old fashioned sort of women ? Not the ‘first day of girl hood’ sort?

In which case, I don’t think there would be much of a problem as :

1. they were not sexually confused
2. sexual abuse by women ( the old sort) is vanishingly rare.

Yep, all the leaders at my DS’s troop were women. What were they supposed to do - never run a camp? Only allow girls to go on camp?

I don't understand why parents will pay for this, there are so many activities children can do these days (all of which cost money) unless they're being deceived. There is no way I'd pay for scouts or guides on the basis of lack of safeguarding, my money will go elsewhere.

I know men (good men obvs) who do a lot of volunteering and they would absolutely not agree to be the only adult overnight on residential in a girls dorm. They would self exclude (good men stay out so the bad men stand out etc).

It's just asking for a scandal really. Why are these organisations so crap at safeguarding?

In the UK there is no requirement for leaders of both sexes although it is preferable. No adult of either sex should be present while children are washing or dressing or toileting unless it is necessary and a pre agreed care plan is in place. Should an emergency require a child to be partially dressed for first aid or similar there would be two leaders and a peer of the childs choice present.

Thanks - I understand the same job issue. But does that mean there's no requirement to have a woman present if they're taking girls away on a residential (as is standard in schools with children)