Anyone else worried Trump’s advocacy of gender-critical views taints and discredits them?

I think this is an important point.

The people attacking JW are the core of the Democrat party these days - middle class progressives who are convinced of all the tribal beliefs - gender ideology is great, you need racism to fight racism, that working class people are embarrassing bigots, and the poor need to sit tight, take their handouts, and vote Democrat.

They are like the Labour Party on steroids in terms of blind commitment to ideology - so many Americans I know over the past ten years have drifted to the Republicans due to this. They are now a far broader tent in terms of who is under that banner. They are pretty united on gender ideology being batshit though, and dangerous.

The ones doing the smearing and crediting Trump for doing GC things that he's not remotely connected with are the idiots. They are the ones legitimising him.

Take for example the news about Sussex University and Kathleen Stock yesterday. It was totally UK based and down to UK law and women with in the UK taking action. But the reports mention Trump in an attempt to try and smear these women who have the actual preexisting, long before Trump, law on their side.

So no I'm not worried about the smears. I am worried about this fuckwittery is legitimising Trump as sane and rational and 'taking common sense action' in areas he's had fuck all to do with.

You seem to think he cares about women to fit your ideals, he and his cronies don't care about women or children he just cares about what they see as right, I mean look at their "family planning " polices not giving a hoot about women or children.

I’m concerned the fact Trump is an advocate of gender-critical views taints and discredits them in the eyes of thinking people. The verdict of history may be harsh because of the Trump connection.

I think what you mean, OP, is that it taints and discredits them in the eyes of non-thinking people.

I don't really give to shits about what non-thinking people conclude and I haven't since I was about 14 years old. It's an attitude I'd recommend. Following along with progressive groupthink is no more laudatory than any other kind of groupthink, and why would you pay attention to the hard of thinking anyway?

Why anyone would think the views of Trump, or anyone else, on Ukrainian-Russian political conflicts, would relate in any way to gender ideology, I do not know.

Well that’s the point, isn’t it?

Right wing forums aren’t full of insecure, weak minded people handwringing about whether Trump is shifting to the left by “aligning with Julie Bindel and other such Leftists”.

I feel sorry for people who don’t have the inner strength to hold their view because it’s what they believe, but instead want their view to be considered “acceptable” by the “right sort of people” whoever they’re supposed to be.

So yes, let’s ramp up the child sterilisation shall we? Because Trump thinks that’s bad, so we must think it’s good, or we’re such terrible people waaaah!

Pathetic.

Less than a year ago, posts correctly describing transwomen as men would be deleted.
The Guardian for example, never described trans sexual offenders as transgender.
We were silenced.
We were bullied because we wouldn’t give up our rights and freedoms to men that demand they have priority to our place in society.
We are criticised because we want to protect our children…

I don’t give a flying toss anymore what others think. My mind is my own and no one’s opinion of what I should or shouldn’t think matters to me. Just fuck off 😁

I am one of those people that hadn’t seen a thread on this topic before today’s. So it is useful in that respect.
I am, like many, a GC woman who is actively campaigning against Trump, his administration and the Far-Right. I don’t see any problem with understanding that Trump’s position on gender ideology (with respect to Trans) is reasonable: no men in women’s sports, prisons, spaces, but the rest of his policies and behaviour are deplorable and wrong.
I also think that the Hitler, vegetarian analogy could be useful for explaining this to critics.

The other way around. Lots of people assume that Rowling, Duffield etc. are aligned with Trump because of their superficial agreement on this issue. Hard of thinking people, obviously.

The only positive thing is that each time we do this, each time we engage with these types of threads people do read them. And hopefully every time someone will stop and think and stop worrying that they are going to be aligned with the far right for fighting for women and children.

I think the US and the UK have fundamentally different approaches to human rights, with the US (whether considering guns on the right or abortion on the left) prioritising individual freedom, and the UK balancing competing rights.

Mentally Americans are the people who didn't want to put up with their neighbour so got on the Mayflower and then headed west.

Obviously I am stereotyping and generalising massively, but I think our common language hides huge philosophical differences.

I don't know HOW MANY TIMES we have to say that it was completely within the Democrats means to you know, stop sterilising and mutilating kids and putting male murderers and rapists into female jails.

This is on them, not on the women who frequent Mumsnet.

I applaud you!

Sometimes I think this is exactly what some people want us to say. Hence all the hand wringing about saying something positive about the EOs.

We're going to need a separate board for all of these threads soon.

Posts just asking if its really worth opposing trans ideology if it means agreeing with trump. Then lots of british women dutifully condemning trump, even though they havent actually supported him at all.

Concerned posters castigating other posters for not following the script - we are supposed to say trump isnt GC, he's a convicted rapists, he wants women barefoot and pregnant....

It's going to go on and on, because the concerned posters want us to say that fighting trans ideology is not worth it. Its been going on for years. At first it was because opposing trans ideology wasnt progressive, or anti gay, or anti women, or racists, or against 'intersex people', now its pro trump.

Everything around trans ideology becomes scripted and full of slogans. Having to continuously reply to bullshit accusations is just following their script.

Ive said it before, but if the concerned posters really believed that trump was such an imminent danger to women, they wouldn't be spending their time on a british parenting forum.

Yes, I'm now fully committed to the view that biological sex isn't real, and that men and women should share prison cells and sports teams. I just couldnt live with myself or feel that I was a morally pure person if I didnt believe the precise opposite of Donald Trump.

People are capable of taking dispassionate views on political matters. It is not necessary to have always to align along tribal identity pathways....whereby if you agree with one thing you have to agree with everything else that party says or does, or vice versa. Realpolitik is the opposite of ideological politics....it deals with pragmatic and sometimes harsh realities.

It matters not what Trump thinks or feels as an individual..it matters what he does. Trump is merely the instrument of a particular time in history...though of course his personal style, and that of his administration, has impacts too - as we're finding out in Europe.

Sex based realism is the mainstream position the world over.

This is why his stance on gender politics is so damaging for GC women. That people align Trump with us.

Works both ways. Who the hell wants to align with these racist sexist Democrats who just persecuted a black politician? The Dems are getting more and more insane.

Anger, Personal Attacks and Porn: Dem Wheeler Takes the Heat at LWV Event in Peterborough

New Hampshire Democrats have repeatedly and publicly accused Wheeler, who is Black, of supporting “Jim Crow” policies by supporting women’s-only spaces.
At one point, the League of Women Voters’ video stream of the event was hijacked, replaced with graphic images of sex, along with a racial slur. The stream had to be shut down.

https://nhjournal.com/anger-personal-attacks-and-porn-dem-wheeler-takes-the-heat-at-lwv-event-in-peterborough/

What about that nurse recently almost losing their job for misgendering a racist nonce? This stuff happens again and again.

Trump is a racist sexist idiot so are many Democrats. Like it or not Trump got MORE support from minorities than other Republicans. The reasons for that are complex, but the fact some Democrats use women and minorities as props with no autonomy or respect.

We can actually avoid supporting the bad stuff both sides are doing and most of the time the gender crit side does that. If anything the gender critical side is TOO prone to self police and to spend days arguing whether some ultras are need expelling from our side because they are too right wing. On the other hand the right leaning part of our coalition gets irate because they see themselves as stronger on calling out the sexist evils carried out by Muslims etc. Those debates get really nasty we have seen it on Mumsnet.

However there is a huge difference. The Trump coalition and the genderists tend to excuse truly horrific acts their side does with ease and with no debate.

At worse the British gender crit coalition has an internal division over language and how much we use the right or left to get our agenda carried out. We keep arguing, debating and fighting and that is in fact our strength. A bunch of pesky women with some guys too, who are difficult with opinions, is never going be angelic. Our side doesn't have to be perfect, we actually recognise the complexity of being human.

That is why we keep winning. We took back the Tory party, Labour is changing gradually, we broke the SNP, even the Lib Dems now are forced legally to allow women to say they are real while trying to marginalize them. Lots more to do, but you can see the progress.

Right, got you! Got a bit muddled there.

No, I'm saying that most people agree with the measures against males in female sports and spaces. It was the post I was responding to that used the term " anti trans". Trump is merely reflecting popular views.

That is your opinion. ‘thinking people’ , however, may have the self awareness and humility to know that they have no idea what goes on in someone else’s head. We can only judge by their actions.

Trump’s actions in putting a stop to the medicalisation and exploitation of children, and the removal of hulking men from female changing rooms and playing fields is a ‘good’ ( which seems have been enthusiastically approved and adopted by large numbers of his electorate). I will leave it to a higher power to judge his ‘intentions’.

BTW, what are yours? Because I might speculate that your ‘ real’ intentions are actually a desire to cut girls’ breasts off, and facilitate men being able to access women at their most vulnerable : half naked in a changing room, locked in a prison cell. But I won’t suggest that, because I don’t know.

Even a stopped clock it right twice a day. I think part of the issue is people are so divided. I don’t really understand when having a reasoned conversation and agreeing to respectfully disagree became problematic. Just because I agree in one point doesn’t mean I agree with everything else he says.

Im pretty sure I could find a point of commonality with just about anyone tbh.

This is why his stance on gender politics is so damaging for GC women. That people align Trump with us.

Really? You think most people think Trump is just like J.K. Rowling, Julie Bindel and Rosie Duffield?

Yes, I agree. But I feel the same about quite a lot of right-wing people - I agree with them on this issue but not much else.

Too many people want to divide humanity into two camps: nice, kind, caring, mostly left-wingers who support "trans rights" or wicked, evil, racist, homophobic, mostly right-wingers who are "gender critical". The members of the first group often see themselves as the Goodies, noble Upholders of Truth. I imagine they picture themselves with upraised chin, looking slightly frowningly into the middle distance, ready to take on the Baddies.

But the world isn’t like that. People are complicated, can hold a variety of views on different subjects and don’t necessarily fall cleanly into one camp or the other. In fact those camps don’t really exist.

When trans rights supporters/activists assume that because I am "gender critical" I support Trump etc., I ask them about their opinions on the Middle East. When they tell me, as they nearly always do, that they are pro-Palestinian, I ask them if that then means that they support Hamas and the homophobic, misogynistic Iranian mullahs too - after all, as they have one opinion in common they must share all their other opinions too…

That usually shuts them up.

This.

I've spoken about this a few times on here, but last year I got kicked out of an online parenting group for challenging the view that JK Rowling is a bigoted transphobe who has been brainwashed by the far right.

The women in that group were almost all based in the US, living in their little liberal echo chambers where they just can't understand how Trump keeps winning when nobody in their right mind could agree with his views. For them, if Trump agrees with something then it is automatically bad, and if Trump opposes something then it is automatically good. Anyone in their circle who privately believes that Lia Thomas shouldn't have been competing in women's swimming events must keep that view to themselves for fear of becoming a social pariah, thus reinforcing the view that everyone else thinks that Lia is a brave and stunning woman just trying to pursue her athletic career despite terrible discrimination, and so that must be the truth.

Although I tried in vain to explain, they just do not get that JK Rowling lives in a country where objections to gender ideology have come from across the political spectrum. Most of the biggest voices opposing things like self ID are left wing feminists like JK Rowling, Rosie Duffield, Julie Bindel and many others too numerous to mention. Not only have these people typically voted for left wing parties (and been very vocal about it) but even those on the political right in the UK are mostly still equivalent to or even to the left of the Democrats in the US.

This is something they cannot and will not ever get their heads round because they live in a bubble and have very little intellectual curiosity about people from other cultures. These are people who think they are worldly if they possess a passport and have seen Big Ben or been up the Eiffel Tower, but they have never taken the time to understand how the political landscape is vastly different in other countries they think should be the same.

You might vote Democrat, but if you think that civilians should have the right to own guns (even if you believe there should be more gun control than there currently is in the US), if you believe that three months of paid maternity leave is a good deal, and that people should take responsibility for paying for at least some of their own healthcare, or that it's normal for rich people to pay more and get better healthcare or skip to the front of the line, if you believe in a relatively small state with lower taxes and more personal responsibility, I'm sorry to say that if you came to the UK and became a British citizen, the Tories would be the political party for you. You would be considered fairly right wing.

Calling JK Rowling far right, when you're from the US 95% of the electorate are right wing by European standards, and when you clearly don't have a Scooby doo about any of the other political beliefs she has expressed over the years or where those beliefs put her on the UK political spectrum, putting her in the "Trump supporter" box purely because she doesn't pretend to believe humans can change sex, just displays an appalling level of ignorance about the world outside your borders.

But they are a product of their environment and can't be entirely blamed for their stupid opinions.

I reserve far harsher judgement for anyone in the UK suggesting that belief in biological reality is a Trumpian view.

The US is not the leader of the free world anymore and hasn't been for a long time. We don't actually have to pay any attention to what either the Republicans or the Democrats have to say about this because we are sovereign countries who make our own decisions and decide our own values.

When it comes to trans issues, the most influential factors coming out of the US, and the ones we need to be far more worried about than either the Republicans or the Democrats, are the owners of social media, i.e. the Musks and the Zuckerbergs of this world (who owns TikTok?) and the US based big pharma and for-profit healthcare industry who are pushing "gender affirming care" for their own financial gain and trying to persuade their colleagues in the rest of the world that this represents best clinical practice.

I'm not reading this. Trump is a convicted rapist and you'd support him just because he hates transwomen even more than he hates normal women

Really ?
Well he’d have to have very long arms as I’m 4000kms from him.