University of Sussex fined £585,000 by Office for Students

@popefully Sure. I’m not sure how close to academia you are. You might know it well.
If I follow on from @TizerorFizz:

1. Students pay (a LOT) for their uni education, albeit via loans which often don’t get paid off. Still there was a shift from them being ‘students’ to becoming a ‘customers’

2. To create a baseline standard for these institutions, they have a structured framework - the Teaching Excellence Framework - which is tested and often ‘gamed’ by the universities. E.g. You’ll have former polytechs scoring better than LSE. I’m not being snobby there - but generally the education they would deliver is simply not comparable in quality because of the resources available to them.

3. As part of the TEF, students are surveyed about their Uni. And if scored low, the uni can get lower score, less funding and specific directives to bring them to a bronze silver or gold standard. There’s a whole section on the questionnaire about perceived ability to get a job after degree. Graduates are also surveyed on their current salary and that is linked with the course they took and has implications. Not taking into account the economy or personal agency of the student.

4. As a result, the arts and humanities have been defunded in this system in favour of business and STEM in many unis. And it leaves lecturers with anxiety that students won’t ‘like’ their course, not perform well, casting risk their work and subject.

5. This is resulting in lower calibre, dumbed-down degree courses while very fundamental subjects like Philosophy or English literature depts closing down. Some have called it the industrialisation of education.

6. There’s also something here about widening participation, which I always feel so cautious speaking about. WP is excellent for some, but there’s no doubt the system has forced some people who want to progress their career into a uni, when they are simply not cut out for it. Apprenticeships and other quals have been devalued and packed into the structure and cost of a degree e.g. nursing. So people apply to uni, uni is only too happy to have their money fill their expanding space to make themselves financially viable. Then the student doesn’t enjoy it, drops out after a year or two with no qual, student debt and that reflects badly on the course and the uni - and funding and framework scores reflect this.

There’s a lot more to this of course. But just touching on it here.

And it's not about fucking teams, we're not 4 years old, it's about women's safety and rights.

Neither VC covered themselves in glory here.

The fact the VC isn't accepting they did anything wrong nor reflecting on that says it all. IIRC the police advised Stock to teach online and not go to her workplace due to the level of threats. That's not respectful dissenting views, that's threats and harassment.

Shouldn’t really take a day to state what ‘ideals’ of Kathleen Stock you disagree with? Why state something you can’t articulate, on a discussion forum?

I haven't seen much about 'presumption on this thread about the perceived beliefs of Sasha Roseneil' - there has been some, of course but overall, there has been reaction to what she actually wrote, what she said and what she didn't say.

She has failed to acknowledge that what happened to Kathleen Stock was not just a denial of the academic freedom that the VC believes in, but a campaign of harassment that ultimately not only deprived her of her academic freedom, but her ability to tolerate the atmosphere generated by a range of members of the university, staff as well as students.

It's true that the 'physically hostile atmosphere on campus' developed under the VCship of Andrew Tickell, and was inherited by Sasha Roseneil. But was she more proactive than her predecessor in 'tak[ing] a stance to enforce or defend unpopular decisions'? When she took over in 2022, did she oversee a radical overhaul of the pro-trans policies which enabled and emboldened Stock's persecutors? Did she ensure that those responsible for the harassment, staff or students, were disciplined? Has anybody been held to account for what they did? What did she actually do to ensure that what happened to Doc Stock could never happen again in Sussex Uni.?

In other words, is there any hard evidence to back up your confidence in her 'to maintain a tolerant environment.'?

You may know more about her than we do; all we're going on is what she has said, and what she has failed to say, and so far neither inspires confidence.

It's not personal, it's not #teamAndrew or #teamSasha🙄it's an objective response to what she has written.

There's a lot of presumption on this thread about the perceived beliefs of Sasha Roseneil.

At UCL she was Pro-Provost (Equity and Inclusion) [in addition to her day job of being Dean of the Faculty of Social and Historical Sciences] when, in 2021, UCL's senior leadership team stood by the decision of the Academic Board to end UCL's involvement in Stonewall's workplace equality index and diversity champions programme. That was a highly unpopular decision among certain groups but she and the Provost stood fast in the face of a barrage of negative criticism.

I don't know much about Adam Tickell but the fact that he was VC of Sussex during the period when there was allowed to be a physically hostile atmosphere on campus, does not inspire me to think of him as someone willing to take a stance to enforce or defend unpopular decisions.

I know which of the two I have more confidence in their attempt to maintain a tolerant environment.

#TeamSasha

@popefully We, as a county, expanded university education in the 1960s with new universities (Surrey, Warwick etc) and established the polytechnics. We then, in 1992 allowed colleges of HE, polys, teacher training colleges and art colleges to become universities. They then all offered degrees and most of what they now teach are degrees or post grad degrees.

So who pays? In 1970 around 8% went to university, now it’s 38%. So we have fees to pay for this huge increase in numbers. International students can pay 3 times as much. It’s inevitable that the state could not afford this whacking growth. Should the hospital porter pay for all undergrads? Or should those earning the most, because they have a degree education, contribute the most? It has to be the latter if we want this volume of undergrads. I think we have too many but this is why they pay - access to HE they did not have previously.

Agree: an issue is free speech vs behavior (antisocial, criminal or against policy)

Universities should take action against behavior. Free speech is not free behavior.

Student against “name the cause” spray paints and destroys an artwork they disagree with. That is not free speech. Today some think the behavior action is justified because the thing protesting they think demands action & thus it’s justified.

they will learn if they are expelled, punished and fined. Not coddled by soft leadership. If coddled, They will be emboldened & do more harm.

It doesn’t disappoint me, I was expecting it.

The TEF and funding model of student fees has decimated the quality of university education.

Interested to hear more on why you think this is? (Not in a snarky way)

Pleasure.

😂

Thanks for letting me know.

I am indeed. You aren't demonstrating anything different.

We aren't dumb.

You’re free to think that for yourself.

You mean you don't actually know what happened nor what Kathleen Stock believes but you don't want to admit that?

Fair enough.

We all know the score.

@RedToothBrush and @Ereshkigalangcleg

I won’t be elaborating as I’m really not interested in a days long unpicking of this. It’s been done to death. Sorry if it disappoints folks.

She wasn’t there at the time- she doesn’t have to defend anything at all. She is well positioned to talk about how they’ve changed and recognise freedom of speech as integral to intellectual pursuit and the essence of a university. She’s made a choice. Long may it haunt her.

I do not agree with the ideals of Kathleen Stock.

You mean that sex continues to exist regardless of gender identity?!

Interested to understand what “ideals” of Kathleen Stock that you disagree with. There’s a lot of misinformation out there.

It’s difficult to #be kind to groups of people shouting, throwing things and wearing black balaclavas. They look intimidating. They look like thugs.

I do not agree with the ideals of Kathleen Stock. HOWEVER, UoS deserve this penalty and much more.

Students these days don’t know the difference between a literal fight and critical thinking and now the university doesn’t either! I find it sad, but mostly scary.

As an educational institution, UoS

• should know and teach the difference between theory and practise.
• know and teach that theory is there to be accepted or rejected
• know theory is part of critical thinking and critical debate which is an essential for university level education and a KEY LIFE SKILL
• demonstrate this to students who are leaving university not knowing the difference between all of the above

Imagine going to uni as student and telling your lecturer who has dedicated their life to their subject that ‘no I don’t want that on the course’? Dictating what is taught to them. Please.

The TEF and funding model of student fees has decimated the quality of university education. It’s utterly brain-drained from students dictating what they do and don’t want do or learn.

Adam Tickell had already been appointed to his Birmingham post when he made that statement in support of Kathleen Stock. He left Sussex at the end of that term and started at Birmingham in January 2022.

Wherever people hide their faces to protest there is a problem.

It says on so many levels there's not free speech.

‘The masks, it’s not meant to be threatening’?! Not meant to be threatening, you have got to be kidding me, who the hell wouldn’t be threatened by that? It’s sheer lunacy 🤦‍♀️

I have never heard of any student or staff losing their uni place or job as a result of harassing Kathleen Stock.