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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Review "Six Conversations we're Scared to have"

291 replies

Igneococcus · 23/03/2025 07:14

I hope this sharetoken works, my laptop has died a lonely death while I was away and I'm doing this from the phone.
Sarah Ditum review if Guilty Feminist book:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/325fffb2-2c93-4dc8-908f-8b9bf22f331a?shareToken

Join me in my echo chamber! More from the Guilty Feminist

In Six Conversations We’re Scared to Have, the comedian Deborah Frances-White says we need to tackle difficult subjects. So why the same old lazy talking points?

https://www.thetimes.com/article/325fffb2-2c93-4dc8-908f-8b9bf22f331a?shareToken=

OP posts:
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9
NotBadConsidering · 03/05/2025 20:00

Presumably if men can become this yet-to-be-defined “social woman” that means men can also become a “social lesbian” which would be someone who is a “social woman” (yet to be defined) who is attracted to other “social women”.

And yet somehow it isn’t homophobic to say men can be lesbians…

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2025 19:55

It’s not really all that “feminist”, is it?

Helleofabore · 03/05/2025 19:54

So far from @Onetimeonlyftw ’s description, what I can gather is that one particular group of male people who are considered vulnerable, are to be treated as if they are female because they are vulnerable male people.

Why should that group of male people get additional privileges that no other group of male people get?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2025 19:50

How does a male become a “social woman”? What things have to be present or happen?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2025 19:49

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:39

(Sigh)

In the way I’ve explained so many times above

Link to it then. Because otherwise it just looks like you are deliberately avoiding answering.

NecessaryScene · 03/05/2025 19:47

Nice transphobia - this is a celebrity-based caricature of trans people, who just want to live their lives.

Lol - "trans people" - as if you don't know what sex I'm describing!

And in what way "celebrity-based"? We've been listening to trans people for years, and that is the way we've repeatedly seen transwomen wanting to live their lives.

Sure, they're not all that bad, but from observation it's a far more accurate caricature than your caricature of women, if you're describing what they do as "social women".

LonginesPrime · 03/05/2025 19:46

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:07

@Helleofabore

So, I ask again and I hope that you might answer: What other protected characteristic groups have been told that they need to allow the oppressor class access to their provisions? What other groups are you, an equality activist, directing who should and shouldn't be included in their characteristic?

This only makes sense if you believe trans women are men, which I don’t.

Trans women are not female (biological), but they are women (social/political).

Oppression isn’t a single, flat experience. Trans women face both misogyny and transphobia—a unique and often more dangerous combination. Including them in women’s spaces acknowledges this layered experience, rather than erasing it.

I am a lifelong feminist. And I feel justified in having this opinion as a cis-woman. But I wouldn’t get involved in arguments about forms of oppression that don’t affect me personally.

I think there may be times to use the provisions in the Equality Act (as existed even before the Supreme Court ruling) to prevent trans women having access to some women’s spaces sometimes, subject to a risk assessment. But I think banning trans women from all women’s spaces is cruel and unnecessary.

But in order to protect the privacy of transwomen with a GRC, we would have to treat all men as potentially having a GRC if we want to make sure transwomen can be treated as women in certain circumstances.

Even if we say “forget the paperwork - all transwomen should be treated as women regardless of whether or not they have a GRC”, you can’t assume that someone does or doesn’t identify as a woman because of their clothes or hairstyle, etc. And if we follow the argument in the GRA, it would be a breach of a trans person’s privacy to ask them how they identify.

So in order to ensure we don’t discriminate against any transwoman who chooses to present in jeans and a shirt with short hair and could easily be mistaken for a man, we would have to assume that any man might in fact identify as a woman.

On this basis, we would be compelled to let every man into women’s spaces so that we don’t inadvertently discriminate against a non-passing transwoman.

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 19:45

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:19

You know the signs that say “Not all disabilities are visible”?

Disability is the perfect example because disabilities are socially defined.

For a long time, those with invisible disabilities were not considered allowed to use disabled facilities. They were considered able - or in your analogy, the oppressors. But now they are accepted as disabled and able to access facilites and are allowed to self determine whether their eligibility.

"Disability is the perfect example because disabilities are socially defined."

Not randomly, though. And not just on the basis of, "I feel like I am disabled." There are studies done to show that a condition is indeed a disability, including in the case of invisible disabilities.

Not only is there no such study about trans people, but there cannot even be. What would such a study observe? Are trans women biological female? No. Then what else? Being a woman is not about behaviour, or interests, or anything observable or measurable.

So really, your analogy is like if a random group of disabled and able people got together and decided that, "Having blue eyes is a disability." Predictably, other disabled people would go to court to fight this, and in the end, it would have to be clearly stated that no, having blue eyes is not a disability.

"For a long time, those with invisible disabilities were not considered allowed to use disabled facilities. "

Which wasn't fair because they do have a disability. That's not at all the same as not having a disability and self-determining that you can go into the disabled toilets anyway.

Helleofabore · 03/05/2025 19:42

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:39

(Sigh)

In the way I’ve explained so many times above

Then if we are still asking, you haven’t articulated it clearly at all.

Start with how any male person can experience misogyny?

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:42

NecessaryScene · 03/05/2025 19:31

In what way is a man a “social woman”?

Fishnets, head tilt, oversized fake boobs and yelling "it's ma'am" before demolishing the shop.

You know, like women.

Edited

Nice transphobia - this is a celebrity-based caricature of trans people, who just want to live their lives.

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:39

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2025 19:23

That makes zero sense. In what way is a man a “social woman”?

(Sigh)

In the way I’ve explained so many times above

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2025 19:33

@NecessaryScene🤣

NecessaryScene · 03/05/2025 19:31

In what way is a man a “social woman”?

Fishnets, head tilt, oversized fake boobs and yelling "it's ma'am" before demolishing the shop.

You know, like women.

SionnachRuadh · 03/05/2025 19:31

I wish I could identify out of my long-term health issues. "Socially defined" has very limited utility when you're describing disability.

And I don't think invisible disabilities are a great analogy for trans identity, which is almost always extremely visible.

Helleofabore · 03/05/2025 19:26

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:23

@Helleofabore I differentiate between female (biological) and ‘woman’ (social) - as explained above. And not all women’s spaces need to be female only.

What women’s provisions should not be sex based?

Helleofabore · 03/05/2025 19:24

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:19

You know the signs that say “Not all disabilities are visible”?

Disability is the perfect example because disabilities are socially defined.

For a long time, those with invisible disabilities were not considered allowed to use disabled facilities. They were considered able - or in your analogy, the oppressors. But now they are accepted as disabled and able to access facilites and are allowed to self determine whether their eligibility.

My analogy was clear.

If a person was fraudulently claiming to be disabled, should they be able to access provisions for disabled people? Yes or no?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2025 19:23

That makes zero sense. In what way is a man a “social woman”?

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:23

@Helleofabore I differentiate between female (biological) and ‘woman’ (social) - as explained above. And not all women’s spaces need to be female only.

Helleofabore · 03/05/2025 19:22

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:19

You know the signs that say “Not all disabilities are visible”?

Disability is the perfect example because disabilities are socially defined.

For a long time, those with invisible disabilities were not considered allowed to use disabled facilities. They were considered able - or in your analogy, the oppressors. But now they are accepted as disabled and able to access facilites and are allowed to self determine whether their eligibility.

So again, you are evading the question.

Have you wondered why you cannot answer the question?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2025 19:21

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:07

@Helleofabore

So, I ask again and I hope that you might answer: What other protected characteristic groups have been told that they need to allow the oppressor class access to their provisions? What other groups are you, an equality activist, directing who should and shouldn't be included in their characteristic?

This only makes sense if you believe trans women are men, which I don’t.

Trans women are not female (biological), but they are women (social/political).

Oppression isn’t a single, flat experience. Trans women face both misogyny and transphobia—a unique and often more dangerous combination. Including them in women’s spaces acknowledges this layered experience, rather than erasing it.

I am a lifelong feminist. And I feel justified in having this opinion as a cis-woman. But I wouldn’t get involved in arguments about forms of oppression that don’t affect me personally.

I think there may be times to use the provisions in the Equality Act (as existed even before the Supreme Court ruling) to prevent trans women having access to some women’s spaces sometimes, subject to a risk assessment. But I think banning trans women from all women’s spaces is cruel and unnecessary.

If you think there are any circumstances when “trans women” should be excluded from women only spaces, you’re acknowledging that they aren’t actually women. Which of course they are not.

Helleofabore · 03/05/2025 19:20

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:07

@Helleofabore

So, I ask again and I hope that you might answer: What other protected characteristic groups have been told that they need to allow the oppressor class access to their provisions? What other groups are you, an equality activist, directing who should and shouldn't be included in their characteristic?

This only makes sense if you believe trans women are men, which I don’t.

Trans women are not female (biological), but they are women (social/political).

Oppression isn’t a single, flat experience. Trans women face both misogyny and transphobia—a unique and often more dangerous combination. Including them in women’s spaces acknowledges this layered experience, rather than erasing it.

I am a lifelong feminist. And I feel justified in having this opinion as a cis-woman. But I wouldn’t get involved in arguments about forms of oppression that don’t affect me personally.

I think there may be times to use the provisions in the Equality Act (as existed even before the Supreme Court ruling) to prevent trans women having access to some women’s spaces sometimes, subject to a risk assessment. But I think banning trans women from all women’s spaces is cruel and unnecessary.

“Oppression isn’t a single, flat experience. Trans women face both misogyny and transphobia—a unique and often more dangerous combination. Including them in women’s spaces acknowledges this layered experience, rather than erasing it.”

How do male people with a belief they are female face ‘misogyny’?

Transphobia is not a sex based oppression.

In what way does a male person who experiences life with their male body, have the same experience that any female person has with their female body? Every interaction with society has been interpreted from that male bodied perspective. Never from a female bodied perspective.

Female single sex spaces are not needed to ‘acknowledge anyone’s layered experience.’ They are needed for safety and privacy always from male people of any gender.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2025 19:19

Gender identity ideology and trans rights activism is based in misogyny and antiquated sex role stereotypes. I don’t acknowledge anything that puts men’s interests first as “feminism” in any sense.

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:19

Helleofabore · 03/05/2025 19:12

“This only makes sense if you believe trans women are men, which I don’t.”

”Trans women are not female (biological), but they are women (social/political).”

They are male. And you didn’t answer the question, you evaded it.

What other protected characteristic groups have been told that they need to allow the oppressor class access to their provisions? What other groups are you, an equality activist, directing who should and shouldn't be included in their characteristic?

For instance, if someone says they have a disability that they don’t have, should they access the provisions for people who are disabled?

You know the signs that say “Not all disabilities are visible”?

Disability is the perfect example because disabilities are socially defined.

For a long time, those with invisible disabilities were not considered allowed to use disabled facilities. They were considered able - or in your analogy, the oppressors. But now they are accepted as disabled and able to access facilites and are allowed to self determine whether their eligibility.

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:14

PrettyDamnCosmic · 03/05/2025 15:01

Anyone who supports the misogynistic homophobic "trans" cult is by definition a sexist. It does jar when she can be so perceptive about men oppressing women yet has a blind spot when the men doing the oppression dress up as women.

Edited

Trans people and those who support their human rights are not a cult.
Nor are we misogynists or homophobes.

I am a bisexual, trans-inclusive feminist and I’m allowed to have feminism that is different from yours.

Helleofabore · 03/05/2025 19:12

Onetimeonlyftw · 03/05/2025 19:07

@Helleofabore

So, I ask again and I hope that you might answer: What other protected characteristic groups have been told that they need to allow the oppressor class access to their provisions? What other groups are you, an equality activist, directing who should and shouldn't be included in their characteristic?

This only makes sense if you believe trans women are men, which I don’t.

Trans women are not female (biological), but they are women (social/political).

Oppression isn’t a single, flat experience. Trans women face both misogyny and transphobia—a unique and often more dangerous combination. Including them in women’s spaces acknowledges this layered experience, rather than erasing it.

I am a lifelong feminist. And I feel justified in having this opinion as a cis-woman. But I wouldn’t get involved in arguments about forms of oppression that don’t affect me personally.

I think there may be times to use the provisions in the Equality Act (as existed even before the Supreme Court ruling) to prevent trans women having access to some women’s spaces sometimes, subject to a risk assessment. But I think banning trans women from all women’s spaces is cruel and unnecessary.

“This only makes sense if you believe trans women are men, which I don’t.”

”Trans women are not female (biological), but they are women (social/political).”

They are male. And you didn’t answer the question, you evaded it.

What other protected characteristic groups have been told that they need to allow the oppressor class access to their provisions? What other groups are you, an equality activist, directing who should and shouldn't be included in their characteristic?

For instance, if someone says they have a disability that they don’t have, should they access the provisions for people who are disabled?