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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Review "Six Conversations we're Scared to have"

291 replies

Igneococcus · 23/03/2025 07:14

I hope this sharetoken works, my laptop has died a lonely death while I was away and I'm doing this from the phone.
Sarah Ditum review if Guilty Feminist book:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/325fffb2-2c93-4dc8-908f-8b9bf22f331a?shareToken

Join me in my echo chamber! More from the Guilty Feminist

In Six Conversations We’re Scared to Have, the comedian Deborah Frances-White says we need to tackle difficult subjects. So why the same old lazy talking points?

https://www.thetimes.com/article/325fffb2-2c93-4dc8-908f-8b9bf22f331a?shareToken=

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WhatterySquash · 24/03/2025 09:47

Chersfrozenface · 24/03/2025 09:13

Do they have editors in publishing any more?

If so, are they allowed to fact check certain subjects? I mean, and keep their jobs / ever get another contract.

Having read some things about publishing on here, I would think the answer to the second question would be "no", but someone may know different.

Yes, some publishers are still quite big on fact-checking - and editing is often a very important stage if something is not very well-written but they want to publish it for whatever reason (big name, good story, good concept etc.)

It’s absolutely true that in publishing a blind eye is turned to the claims of gender ideology often not being factual or logical, and you do risk your job if you point that out. There are plenty of books, including children’s books, full of untruths about that because the ideology has widely captured publishing.

But this glaring error isn’t about gender at all, it’s a statement about political history and shouldn’t be controversial in any way. If you think it’s hard to find examples of openly repressive left-wing regimes you are simply clueless and know absolutely nothing about 20th-century history, not even at a basic general knowledge level. It’s on a par with never having heard of WW1 or WW2.

In the field of publishing I work in, I would absolutely spot and query it, and so would most editors I know, and If I wrote that I’m sure it would be challenged before it got to print.

This book was published by Virago, c/o Little, Brown, c/o Hachette so hardly a fly-by-night operation or dodgy vanity publisher. Shockingly bad.

Pluvia · 24/03/2025 09:27

Sparkletastic · 23/03/2025 13:23

Was very pleasantly surprised to read the Observer editorial today.

Just for info, the Observer has been quietly GC for years. It has a separate editorial team and wasn't sucked down the genderist wormhole anything like as deeply as the Guardian.

Chersfrozenface · 24/03/2025 09:13

WhatterySquash · 23/03/2025 19:40

(Although you do wonder why the editor didn't flag this up either - maybe it was edited by someone similarly clueless. Most editors I know would say "I think this claim needs a fact-check")

Do they have editors in publishing any more?

If so, are they allowed to fact check certain subjects? I mean, and keep their jobs / ever get another contract.

Having read some things about publishing on here, I would think the answer to the second question would be "no", but someone may know different.

SionnachRuadh · 23/03/2025 23:36

That surprises me not a bit. I only know Paul Murphy slightly though, and there are a lot worse than him around.

I think the main difference they have with far right types is that they've found a socially acceptable way of treating outgroups as less than human.

miri1985 · 23/03/2025 23:21

SionnachRuadh · 23/03/2025 22:40

You don't even have to go back to the 1930s. You just need to spend a bit of time around left activist types. Some are lovely, but for far too many, having an identity that revolves around self-righteousness, being morally superior because they care so much about the oppressed of the world, it gives them a permission slip to be giant flaming arseholes.

If you could bring Orwell to the present day in a time machine, he'd recognise people like Owen Jones or Richard Boyd Barrett as very familiar types.

And it's not a far left thing either. Plenty of bad shit happens in mainstream Labour politics. Not that bad things don't happen elsewhere, but the combination of self-righteousness and arseholery is something I associate with either left wing politics or certain religious subcultures.

I suppose I get triggered by people like TGF using "left" as a synonym for "nice", when that's far from my experience.

Did you see during the week that Paul Murphy wouldn't even condemn the former PBP candidate who found out where an Israeli person was staying in Dublin and her and another woman went and found him, harrassed him and spit on him. Apparently the media are in the wrong for talking about spitting on him instead of Israeli war crimes.
https://www.thejournal.ie/woman-spits-on-israeli-man-in-dublin-people-before-profit-6652578-Mar2025/

People Before Profit TD hits out at coverage of woman spitting on Israeli man in Dublin restaurant

One of the women in the video of the incident ran as a People Before Profit candidate in last year’s local elections.

https://www.thejournal.ie:443/woman-spits-on-israeli-man-in-dublin-people-before-profit-6652578-Mar2025/

NonCrimeHakeIncident · 23/03/2025 23:15

That was an enjoyable read! I didn’t mind TGF but I gave up on it when DFW kept inviting on trans-identifying males and they either corrected women or told women to shut up.

DAVID TENNANT
'A bold and timely manifesto for dialogue over division' JEMIMA KHAN
'If you have ever felt shut down, this book is a godsend' EMMA THOMPSON
'Finally! A book to succinctly express the complexity of our age. Fiercely intellectual, thought provoking and inspiring' TOM ALLEN
'Compassionate, rigorous, electric!'' TRAVIS ALABANZA

Those reviews are so helpful! If the privileged, woke, tedious luvvies love your book then you know to avoid it.

miri1985 · 23/03/2025 23:04

TempestTost · 23/03/2025 22:59

I think you are all quite correct. I suppose I find it difficult to understand that an educated person can maintain that. Because you'd have to be calling Maoism or the Stalinist regime right wing, which is clearly bonkers.

If the level of analysis in the whole book is similar to whats quoted in the article above then it wouldn't surprise me if because Stalin and Mao are now seen as bad, that certain people have retconned them into being right wing

miri1985 · 23/03/2025 23:01

Perhaps most embarrassingly, she claims that “it is difficult to find historical examples of public campaigns that target individuals or call for censorship from the left”. Which revises Stalin out of history in a way that Stalin himself could only admire.

I mean David Tennant who is quoted on the front of this book took to a stage and said Kemi Badenoch should shut up and not exist any more. How is that not a targeting an individual with attempted censorship?

"“However, until we wake up and Kemi Badenoch doesn’t exist any more – I don’t wish ill of her, I just wish her to shut up – whilst we do live in this world, I am honoured to receive this."

TempestTost · 23/03/2025 22:59

I think you are all quite correct. I suppose I find it difficult to understand that an educated person can maintain that. Because you'd have to be calling Maoism or the Stalinist regime right wing, which is clearly bonkers.

SionnachRuadh · 23/03/2025 22:40

You don't even have to go back to the 1930s. You just need to spend a bit of time around left activist types. Some are lovely, but for far too many, having an identity that revolves around self-righteousness, being morally superior because they care so much about the oppressed of the world, it gives them a permission slip to be giant flaming arseholes.

If you could bring Orwell to the present day in a time machine, he'd recognise people like Owen Jones or Richard Boyd Barrett as very familiar types.

And it's not a far left thing either. Plenty of bad shit happens in mainstream Labour politics. Not that bad things don't happen elsewhere, but the combination of self-righteousness and arseholery is something I associate with either left wing politics or certain religious subcultures.

I suppose I get triggered by people like TGF using "left" as a synonym for "nice", when that's far from my experience.

WhatterySquash · 23/03/2025 20:30

That's interesting rethinking. I actually remember in the 80s, going on a German exchange trip and we were close to the East German border. The people I was staying with talked a lot abut the guard towers and barbed wire and how it was awful for the east germans. While obviously they may have had a view informed by their own politics, I did understand that it was a repressive regime that didn't let people leave.

Then a few years later some lefty types I knew (I was a lefty teen who went on CND marches etc) went on a labour party trip to E. Germany and kept going on about how wonderful communism was etc. East Germany was automatically great, Cuba was automatically great, China was automatically great - if they were left-wing, they had to be. Even at 16 I thought something was a bit off, I'd read Orwell! And I was amazed that these people didn't seem to have the ability to question dogma or admit some things might be a grey area. It's not a new thing.

RethinkingLife · 23/03/2025 20:02

WhatterySquash · 23/03/2025 19:31

I think with some of these types of people, "left-wing" simply means good, kind, inclusive and progressive, and most importantly, being left-wing means you're a virtuous person and not a nasty old racist, sexist or homophobe or of course "anti-trans". Having established this, you don't need to think about it or understand the economic, political or materialist basis of leftism.

This is of course why followers of GI can embrace massively sexist and homophobic positions - they can't or won't think it through because what matters to them is not being left-wing because they have arrived there through a thought process – but being left-wing because they know that means they're a good person and can thereby atone for being western, white, middle class and suchlike.

If any regime has ever been totalitarian, censorious, dissent-crushing etc then by definition that nasty regime must have been right-wing. Being right-wing means being mean and cruel to marginalised and vulnerable groups so... that makes sense right?

(I am actually left-wing despite my cynicism - but OMG I'm sick of fuckwitted "progressives")

Giles Udy’s conversation with Triggernometry is an interesting example of Labour’s purblindness about what was happening in the USSR.

WhatterySquash · 23/03/2025 19:40

(Although you do wonder why the editor didn't flag this up either - maybe it was edited by someone similarly clueless. Most editors I know would say "I think this claim needs a fact-check")

WhatterySquash · 23/03/2025 19:31

TempestTost · 23/03/2025 18:52

How can someone think there have been no censorious/authoritarian leftism?

What does she think the left is?

I think with some of these types of people, "left-wing" simply means good, kind, inclusive and progressive, and most importantly, being left-wing means you're a virtuous person and not a nasty old racist, sexist or homophobe or of course "anti-trans". Having established this, you don't need to think about it or understand the economic, political or materialist basis of leftism.

This is of course why followers of GI can embrace massively sexist and homophobic positions - they can't or won't think it through because what matters to them is not being left-wing because they have arrived there through a thought process – but being left-wing because they know that means they're a good person and can thereby atone for being western, white, middle class and suchlike.

If any regime has ever been totalitarian, censorious, dissent-crushing etc then by definition that nasty regime must have been right-wing. Being right-wing means being mean and cruel to marginalised and vulnerable groups so... that makes sense right?

(I am actually left-wing despite my cynicism - but OMG I'm sick of fuckwitted "progressives")

RethinkingLife · 23/03/2025 18:59

TGF has plainly never read Mark Fisher on Exiting the Vampire Castle.

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/exiting-vampire-castle/

TempestTost · 23/03/2025 18:52

How can someone think there have been no censorious/authoritarian leftism?

What does she think the left is?

illinivich · 23/03/2025 16:21

TGF started when podcasts were male dominated, and i think she used the feminist label so it wasnt dismissed as being too girly and frivolous. She wanted to appeal to an untapped audience while not been ignored by the women who did already listen to podcasts.

I remember listening to one episode with a trans identifying man, where they rang bells when anyone said anything problematic. They were rightly or wrongly critical of Germain Greer, but either way i could imagine greers reaction to the use of bells.

I think she used the feminist label for clout, but really wanted a podcast of women chatting, so ending up out of her depth. In feminism we cant just say something is wrong and expect everyone to nod along, we are trying to change things, so we have to work through the consequences and say difficult things.

But shes never going to be the women to do that.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 23/03/2025 15:17

"The Guilty Feministst_^ started in 2015 as a place for Frances-White to share lightweight material for women who liked the idea of the “feminist” label but weren’t sure about the detail."

Ooooooffftt. 😂😂😂

Pluvia · 23/03/2025 15:12

The Guilty Feminist has never been feminist. It was just a way of DFW appealing to a certain left-leaning demographic who liked to think they were feminist. She has no right to use the term to describe herself. No GI-supporting woman can be a feminist, because GI is a men's rights movement.

LivingLaVidaBabyShower · 23/03/2025 15:10

Sarah Ditum is 🤩🤩🤩

I was howling laughing at the Stalin comment

nauticant · 23/03/2025 15:09

'The book we need right now about the dilemmas of our time. Deborah's insight & clarity gives us something to aspire to' DAVID TENNANT
'A bold and timely manifesto for dialogue over division' JEMIMA KHAN
'If you have ever felt shut down, this book is a godsend' EMMA THOMPSON
'Finally! A book to succinctly express the complexity of our age. Fiercely intellectual, thought provoking and inspiring' TOM ALLEN
'Compassionate, rigorous, electric!'' TRAVIS ALABANZA

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Conversations-Were-Scared-Have-ebook/dp/B08Y94G6HV

Loushka11 · 23/03/2025 14:57

Yes, thanks for trying. Didn’t work for me either

Igmum · 23/03/2025 13:29

The Stalin line was hysterical!

which revises Stalin out of history in a way Stalin himself could only admire

when commenting on her belief that censorship doesn’t come from the left 😃

Sparkletastic · 23/03/2025 13:23

Was very pleasantly surprised to read the Observer editorial today.

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