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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Division of State and Church in respect to gender

112 replies

ThisPinkWyvern · 15/03/2025 09:28

Galatians 3:28

28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Read full chapter is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gospel of Thomas, Saying 22

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom."
They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?"
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

I am not interested in your answer to the question of whether you believe the above two passages support or do not support being non-binary or transgender. People will always disagree over how to interpret religious texts.

Many non-binary and transgender individuals do however consider how they identify their gender , to be an expression of their religious/ spiritual beliefs.The above two passages are just two examples from Christian religious texts that can be interpreted as non-binary and transgender identities being expressions of religious/ spiritual teachings.

My question therefore is:

Does defining gender as having to be either male or female under law therefore violate the separation of church and state?

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 15/03/2025 18:23

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/03/2025 18:08

Apart from the vegetarianism - or is it veganism?

But any sensible cat would only follow the rules that suited them.

No rules about vegans or vegetarianism in Buddhism. Most of the 'rules' were made for monastics, and they begged for food and took what they were given.

I mean, people can still argue at length on this point, inevitably. :D

imnotwhoyouthinkiam · 15/03/2025 18:22

withthegreatestrespect · 15/03/2025 16:58

And through it all she offers me protection
A lot of love and affection, whether I'm right or wrong

I'm not usually a fan of this song. I think it's generally overrated. But we sang it at Greenbelt (a Christian music and arts festival in case you haven't heard of it) a couple of years ago and it made me cry.

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/03/2025 18:16

withthegreatestrespect · 15/03/2025 18:13

"When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

Knees bent, arms stretched, ra, ra, ra

It reminds me of a Picasso or Dali painting where all the bits are the wrong size / shape or in the wrong place.

withthegreatestrespect · 15/03/2025 18:13

"When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

Knees bent, arms stretched, ra, ra, ra

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/03/2025 18:08

NoBinturongsHereMate · 15/03/2025 17:31

Were I a cat, I think I would favour Buddhism. A good proportion of the statues have convenient laps, and there's often some butter lying around.

Apart from the vegetarianism - or is it veganism?

But any sensible cat would only follow the rules that suited them.

Pratincole · 15/03/2025 18:06

ArabellaScott · 15/03/2025 11:10

Repent, motherfucker!

Ooh! I need to go and play some Alabama 3!

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 15/03/2025 18:00

The Equality Act 2010's definition of a woman as "a female of any age" refers to sex, not gender. So in the UK, this question is irrelevant.

Trump's Executive Orders that talk about the large and small gametes reflect the objective fact that no one who ejaculates sperm can release eggs, and vice-versa. These EOs apply only to living people. The Galatians passage you quote refers to Heaven, the putative residence of the righteous faithful after death. Trump's EOs reflecting material reality for the living don't interfere with people's right to believe whatever they like about what happens after death.

The Thomas passage you quote refers to treating people equally and fairly. The babies are too young to be prejudiced against others and Jesus is telling people to "be more baby" by being less prejudiced. Sex segregation in sports, prisons, changing rooms, dormitories, and loos isn't based on prejudice but on a fact-based understanding that men commit far more violent and sexual offending than women and women are vulnerable to a consequence of sexual assault that men aren't: pregnancy. In this circumstance, treating people fairly means separating the sexes under some limited circumstances to enable women to work, socialise, and meet their obligations within society without being put at preventable risk of male violence and forced pregnancy. Trump's EOs, rooted in the material reality of sex, don't conflict with Thomas, if anything they support Thomas. For the female not to be female, but be simply human, in the boardroom, she has to have a female-only bathroom, otherwise she cannot safely attend the workplace.

Being housed in the men's prison and made to try out for the men's team if he wants to compete in sport isn't stopping someone male from holding a belief, religious or otherwise, that they are non-binary or trans. It's stopping them from denying women their civil rights and forcing others to submit to that belief.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 15/03/2025 17:31

Were I a cat, I think I would favour Buddhism. A good proportion of the statues have convenient laps, and there's often some butter lying around.

DeanElderberry · 15/03/2025 17:28

AshKeys · 15/03/2025 16:57

It is considered gnostic and rejected by the Roman Catholic Church. The Nicene creed was written in repose to heresies such as Gnosticism, Marcionism, Docetism, and Arianism. Protestant churches are also part of the catholic (which means “universal”) Church. Gender is just another heresy,

The Book of Wisdom is canonical scripture for the Western, Eastern, and Orthodox catholic churches.

The 'Gospel of Thomas' is a few scraps of ancient writing discovered less than a century ago.

The idea that any early writings are 'proto-Gnostic' is debated but not universally accepted. Few if any modern scriptural scholars would describe St John's Gospel as proto-Gnostic, never mind Gnostic.

withthegreatestrespect · 15/03/2025 17:07

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/03/2025 17:01

The Gospel of Robbie?

Amen, Sister Kitty

AshKeys · 15/03/2025 17:05

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/03/2025 17:01

The Gospel of Robbie?

Discovered in 1997, but there is some dispute about the original author.

EmpressaurusKitty · 15/03/2025 17:01

withthegreatestrespect · 15/03/2025 16:58

And through it all she offers me protection
A lot of love and affection, whether I'm right or wrong

The Gospel of Robbie?

withthegreatestrespect · 15/03/2025 16:58

And through it all she offers me protection
A lot of love and affection, whether I'm right or wrong

AshKeys · 15/03/2025 16:57

DeanElderberry · 15/03/2025 16:49

Wisdom is canonical for the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches as well the Roman Catholic church, so 'Catholic' was the right word. It's only the protestant churches that rejected it (in the last half millennium).

It is considered gnostic and rejected by the Roman Catholic Church. The Nicene creed was written in repose to heresies such as Gnosticism, Marcionism, Docetism, and Arianism. Protestant churches are also part of the catholic (which means “universal”) Church. Gender is just another heresy,

ArabellaScott · 15/03/2025 16:54

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 15/03/2025 16:01

Not until there are tambourines.

I might also prefer a demon casting out with added talk of angels. If it’s not too much trouble.

No probs.

fangs GIF
AshKeys · 15/03/2025 16:49

The Vatican has rejected the Gospel of Thomas as Gnosticism and not written by Thomas and therefore fraud. Thomas himself was apparently busy converting India after Jesus’ death.

DeanElderberry · 15/03/2025 16:49

AshKeys · 15/03/2025 16:38

Roman Catholics. There are other Catholic Churches, plus of course the Nicene creed declares there is one holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Wisdom is canonical for the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches as well the Roman Catholic church, so 'Catholic' was the right word. It's only the protestant churches that rejected it (in the last half millennium).

ginasevern · 15/03/2025 16:49

@Grammarnut

"Jesus called the Christ is not talking about gender, he is saying that in the presence of God and the apprehension of God souls have no sex."

I know bugger all about the bible but this is how I would interpret the scripts quoted. I would assume that Jesus meant there is no discrimination of souls before god. We are all equal whether man, woman, Jew or gentile. Or maybe he meant that sex, heritage and colour etc cease to exist in the afterlife where we are all become one entity.

withthegreatestrespect · 15/03/2025 16:46

Oh life is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me

Bannedontherun · 15/03/2025 16:45

misscockerspaniel · 15/03/2025 16:43

You OK, hun?

?????

misscockerspaniel · 15/03/2025 16:43

You OK, hun?

AshKeys · 15/03/2025 16:38

Grammarnut · 15/03/2025 13:07

Interestingly, the Catholics never have rejected the book of Wisdom - and there area various mentions of Wisdom being a woman throughout the OT. Also the personification of God as a woman by Jesus called the Christ, in the parable of the lost coin.

Roman Catholics. There are other Catholic Churches, plus of course the Nicene creed declares there is one holy, catholic and apostolic church.

DeanElderberry · 15/03/2025 16:35

You don't have to Christian, or religious, or even human (as @EmpressaurusKitty's splendid cat demonstrated) to know neither humans nor any other mammals can change sex.

Screamingabdabz · 15/03/2025 16:30

We are very much a Christian country in many significant ways, whether folks like it or not. We keep an air of stiff upper lip about it because full on religious zealotry is not the British way. But the majority of sane individuals know that humans can’t change sex.

HTH

Bannedontherun · 15/03/2025 16:30

I could not connect the sets of quotations from ancient texts with the church and state thing it left me with an extra permanent wrinkle on my brow, which is a big TUT from me.

However i had forgotten about “the gospel of Thomas”. Which i had come across somewhere in my (distant) past readings of biblical literature analysis, from a secular perspective.

Thomas, books it is thought in some theological circles, more recordings of what Jesus might actually have said, as opposed to the gospels which documented parts of his life.

He also seems to assert that Jesus, (AKA god) said heaven is within in us as is God.

And that there is no other place than earth Which we shall reside.

obviously been on google for several hours….

Do i sound clever now?????