School toilets redesign - help please

A PP asked why they are making the change. I think that is a very good question.

And if it has something to do with trans / non binary, then why aren't they doing the simplest thing and having a handful of single toilets (like extra accessible ones) instead of messing with the single sex ones.

I actually get that. BUT WE NEED SAFER LOOS.

Please keep us informed!

The DfE know my arguments by now (!!) unfortunately my FOI requests have been met by:
‘Following a search of the Department's
paper and electronic records, I have established that the information you requested is not held by this Department.’

I have asked who does hold the information I requested ie the equality impact assessments and risk assessments. They haven’t got back to me.

When I speak to people on the phone they agree and understand. When I write in by email, no one knows anything.

I will eat my words if anyone has ever done a proper health and safety analysis on the secondary school toilet designs in the school output specification. I really have looked. How can they justify that making them private is more important than making sure children are safe inside the cubicle?

@Catabogus If they come back and say any of the designs fit with the latest school output specification say that they don’t need to stick to that. They just have to say it their school specific brief why.

@WhatAMessWales 👍 great report. I have noticed that the education press are saying vaping is the big new threat in the enclosed private loos. Some schools install alarms in each cubicle then turn them off at exam times as they go off so frequently. They have tried smoke detectors now heat detectors and more cctv. Pupils with asthma are compromised. With vapes being spiked it’s only a matter of time before more goes wrong.

Thank you @Keeptoiletssafe Your careful information gathering and persistence is really appreciated.

@Catabogus Interesting that they're planning washbasins inside the cubicles. Most examples of these mixed sex toilets I've seen so far have been shared handwashing, which is quite clearly against the regulations here in Wales at least. (I think the English regs are a little less clear)

If the problem is bullying and phone misuse, how about we deal with those rather than going 'oh let's create some lockable boxes so that drug taking, sex, bullying and harassment etc can take place in greater privacy, and include sinks so that the kids can make more mess'? As others, and particularly @Keeptoiletssafe have pointed out, creating more fully enclosed spaces creates much worse safety and hygiene problems that simply can't be justified.

I've never seen any study that actually examines whether these mixed sex open plan layouts do improve bullying. It's not evidence based at all.

I think in many cases schools have been told they have to do it because they must be inclusive of trans and non binary students. This really isn't right. The law says that schools must provide boys and girls toilets. Schools are free to provide a unisex option third option if they want. Why should the solution be for everyone to be forced into mixed sex loos?

This report from Merched Cymru goes through the issues with mixed sex toilets.
Mixed sex toilets in Wales' schools – breaking the law - Merched Cymru

This is the reality of a ‘gender neutral bathroom’ as told by a student: ‘Whether it is people having sex, poop smeared on the walls, or the toilet being clogged with an entire roll of toilet paper, horrible things have happened in that bathroom.’

Their answer was more ‘gender neutral bathrooms’: ‘The sex and vaping that is currently concentrated in just four gender neutral bathrooms would be spread between six bathrooms instead.’

It’s the grim acceptance that gets me.

Sorry I commented earlier and was just repeating myself...😬

Yes, a school in my city fairly recently installed gender neutral toilets ( at the behest an activist head teacher), but there were many complaints from parents due to the fact that these toilets were to be monitored by CCTV - which parents objected to.

The head clearly understands there could be issues with privacy and safety, but let his ideological fervour overwhelm his common sense. There is no clamour for mixed sex toilets. Why do it at all?

Good point.

My DD said that in the floor to ceiling cubicles, your friend can't pass you toilet paper or sanitary items under the wall panel/ door.

Sorry I don't have any "official" comments to make or quote, but I'm worried about the girls' safety and security. All the jargon seems to point towards "shared spaces". Yes it talks of cubicles with wash basins, but if there aren't "girls only" areas (where they can change, talk, etc.), they're missing out. Individual cubicles are obviously needed in girls' (or "shared") toilets, but not having shared washing areas makes the whole thing sound as if isolating kids from each other.

I worked in a school with single-sex open plan toilets. A nightmare if you had a period bleed through. (The sinks were open to the corridor.)

The open plan design is supposed to stop bullying and vandalism, but it doesn't really. In addition, in the school where I worked (Scotland) the staff were required to share toilets with the pupils.

I'm now retired and I believe that the new HT has now designated some of the toilets as staff only.

It works until it doesn’t. There’s a lot of conditionals and luck.

No one considers people at their most vulnerable. To be fair the previous government had a go but they commissioned a private company to report back on public toilet design for people with long term health conditions and disabilities. The company ok’ed full height doors in design for this group but their evidence was an article that actually stated, ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls.’
What a waste to disregard what people with diabetes, epilepsy, asthma, cardiac conditions need (none of these long term conditions were discussed). That company went on to get a Stonewall Gold Award.

With respect, the cctv will be retrospective.
No one is constantly watching to work out how long people have been in each cubicle during the day and at after school clubs.
In a typical school of over 1000 pupils that’s a lot of extra vigilance at busy times.

Until something goes wrong, you are blissfully unaware of the dangers. That’s why I am trying to raise awareness.

I have got an FOI in to the DfE. I will let you know the outcome!

The DfE email replies say that schools should be supervising pupils and know their cohort and plan accordingly. That was in response to me asking how schools are supposed to predict when children are having medical episodes.

This requires more supervision, assistance and staff knowledge of all pupils’ conditions than at any secondary school I have ever known.

Ah, that’s what I was afraid of.

On the face of it, it could be viewed as a protective measure for girls, but can result in more problems, as you say. It could also be seen as more “inclusive”.

I’m in agreement with you. Boys have no business in girls’ spaces.

I despair a little at all this. Instead of dealing properly with bad (and potentially criminal) behaviour of some, they make expensive and potentially dangerous changes to infrastructure.

It feels like a continuation of the expectation that women and girls should have to change their behaviour, rather than deal with the poor behaviour of men and boys.

I wonder if the equality impact assessment had been done, and to what level. May just have a look online, and failing that, send a wee FOI.

We have communal toilets open to a public area. They are just set back off the corridor. One side for boys, the other for girls. Sanitary bins in all the girls, free period stuff in a see through toiletry bag hanging on the door. Enhanced cctv monitoring means that if two students go into a cubicle or something is left vandalised or someone is in there for too long then it’s checked out.

I do appreciate there is a safety element to full length doors but on a day to day basis it seems to work. I actually use these loos on a regular basis as at school for after school activities and are always clean and properly stocked. There’s aren’t issues that other people seem to post about they are open between lessons, people don’t ask to go so they can socialise, no vandalism. Going to the loo was a challenge when I was back in highschool as there was a cool gitl infestation. I’d of much preferred cubicles off corridors.

We work in sound proof booths and the Audible alarm is too loud so in such an enclosed space I would imagine there needs to be a flashing light.

I work in a health centre where the cubicles are floor to ceiling doors and I can’t recall they have lights but I will now check.

This thread has really got me thinking thank you and @Catabogus

I have not looked at this in depth but it’s a good point.

It the schools I used to teach out there was one flashing alarm on the ceiling that everyone would have been able to see from their cubicles.

For new and refurbished schools the DfE state: ‘Pupils with hearing difficulties shall be alerted to the schools’ alarm system whilst using the cubicles, as required by AD M’.

So presumably each cubicle needs an alarm now, especially as these enclosed cubicle systems are advertised as offering good ‘acoustic properties’.

Yes they actually mentioned that specifically. This is also what WRN have highlighted in their posters and what the Conservatives have in Scotland (the logo is a boy peeking over the cubicle). It always seems to characterised as being boys doing this to girls.

When anyone complains about single sex toilets I have noticed the go-to solution is just make them private then all the problems go. But the problems just get worse.

What the government should do if they change the design for complete privacy as standard is to do an equality impact assessment. Closing the gaps affects all children at their most vulnerable, but girls (because of greater risk of sexual assaults) and the those with medical conditions (epilepsy, diabetes, heart conditions) most. Is safety or complete privacy more important for Keeping Children Safe?

Thinking about the cost benefit analysis I would say the cost is too much for the benefit. You should have a rule that boys do not go into girls toilets under any circumstances. And the legal consequences of taking a photo drilled into pupils.

For all the other reasons I go into too like hygiene and building evacuations etc, it doesn’t add up. Schools are finding this out to their cost.

@Keeptoiletssafe

i work with deaf children does any of your medical information include the deaf as we frequently get forgotten. As they design new schools with terrible acoustics when children need to listen.

If our children were on a toilet with a floor to ceiling door if there is no flashing alarm in each cubicle then there’s a risk of not hearing the alarm and to do this for every cubicle would put the cost up. Increasing the sound level of the alarm in a closed time space would not be an option.

Likewise if they were to be ill with the door locked asking them if they were ok though the door would not be an option and you can’t see if they were collapsed on the floor.

apologies if you have this covered already.

I know. I believe it was dealt with.

Afterwards the police talked to children during assembly to make them aware.

Just suggesting the schools may be attempting to reduce chances of similar incidents happening by increasing privacy.

That is minor children producing indecent images of other minor children.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/indecent-and-prohibited-images-children

Along with filming other criminal activity

Hmmm. I wonder if an emphasis on privacy over safety may be due to smartphone misuse. I have nieces and nephews and have heard some awful stories of pupils taking pictures/videos of others in toilets/changing rooms.

I hope they’ve recovered. What an awful thing to happen.

Aye, I would imagine cost comes into it. False alarms would be a nuisance, though seems a small cost to safeguard children.

Interesting that they were not used in assaults. I’d guess they didn’t have an opportunity - maybe attacker in between victim and cord or restraining them. Or simply panicking.