St John Ambulance and people with breasts

I renewed my First Aid training at work recently. Trainer was a no-nonsense older woman who talked about women and bras during CPR, and the difference between how men and women describe heart attack symptoms. It was a really good course.

So now in the world we have 'people with breasts' and men. How offensive to erase women but keep the men in - STJA should be ashamed of themselves.

Oh just seen it's been changed, good news.

They haven’t updated point 4 though.

“Correct hand placement for CPR on a person with breasts may mean that your hands may touch some of the breast.”

I’m genuinely shocked they did this so quickly. I am ex-SJA staff and left because they were utterly captured and absolutely blind to anything but Stonewall law.

According to the leaflet, breasts are relevant to defibrilator operation.

"The helper should attach the pads to the casualty’s chest, by removing the backing paper. Apply the pads in the positions shown.

• The first pad should be on the upper right side below the collar bone.
• The second pad should be on the casualty’s left side below the armpit.
• If the person has larger breasts, moving the left breast back towards the centre of the chest will allow correct placement of the AED pad."

@ditalini yeah, I think you're right.

Oh cool! A response time in concordance with their broader aims!

This is one of the reasons that the "people with breasts" wording doesn't work.

Someone who's squeamish/worried about removing a woman's upper clothing to do CPR in case they see/touch her breasts isn't worrying about her cup size.

Many men have more breast tissue than many women, mostly due to weight but also hormonal issues such as prostate cancer etc. I doubt anyone's thinking about those men's breasts before they whip the tshirt off, whereas a woman with small or no breasts may still run the risk of suboptimal care.

Edit: xposted with everyone. That's good they've made an update. PWB is still superfluous given the message they're delivering, but they'd get it in the neck either way so good on them for taking feedback.

Oh that's good. And quick. Well done op for bringing it to our attention
(I'd like to think my email was the turning point 😂).

Men have breasts, as do women. Men can get breast cancer. It is just that breasts are a different shape between males & females.

I am happy with that - it covers both the specific concern about touching women and the practicalities of dealing with breasts

The reason a person would be reticent about CPR is because it’s a woman’s chest, not because of the breasts per se. People are not automatically fine if the woman’s had a mastectomy and conversely, if it were a man with breasts (fat or gynaecomatia) that would not be taboo. So actually imo the word ‘woman’ is the most appropriate. Everyone knows that that includes a trans man who has not had a mastectomy and tbh this scenario is so niche it shouldn’t even be a consideration.

It's so sad to see. Another well respected charity that does such good work (if you look at the full range of courses and initiatives they run) beclowning themselves and looking as if they think the word woman is unsayable.

Wish they'd get a grip.

I don't think anyone is going to think 'thank goodness this woman has a flat chest, I have no concern about touching/revealing her breasts.'

That's another good point about this campaign, rosemarble. It shouldn't be necessary, as so many PPs have rightly said, but .. this is where we find ourselves.

Giving paramedics specific training on CPR/defib procedures involving breasts may result in more women surviving cardiac events, and that's a good thing.

Even giving them the knowledge that they may encounter scenarios where a female casualty turns out to be a man with 'breasts', or a male casualty turns out to be a woman wearing a binder, and the confidence to do what has to be done without fear or hesitation, is not a bad idea.

A different heading on the page, saying 'women' not 'PWBs', would make a big difference to how it is perceived.

edited to add: if I was contacting St John Ambulance, I'd emphasise that I was objecting to the phrase PWBs, but as a woman I welcome that they are moving away from taking the male body as the norm, and more women will hopefully get the correct treatment more promptly because of this campaign.

Thanks for this. I've just sent them an email

People with breasts, people without breasts and "in the course of treating the person, it's OK to touch them"
That seems to cover it.

Oh I agree entirely. When I learnt first aid, it was all very matter of fact - do what you need to do (with care, respect and dignity) to help the patient.

I don't wear a bra, but I am a person with breasts.

You could have women who were naturally virtually flat chested to the point no breasts were visible, or they had them removed due to cancer.

So just saying 'women' doesn't quite cover it.
I don't really know what else they could say tbh.

'People wearing a bra or a binder'? But again that's normalising binders and some blokes might wear a bra for a sexual thrill without being in possession of breasts?!

I get why... but I still despair that this is what it's come to

Maybe it's because people are so scared of being accused of abuse, even if that 'abuse' saved your life.

I’m not a raging transphobic and am not fully up to speed with the ins and outs
of this debate, so very grateful to have these examples of misogyny pointed out on Mumsnet. The way the word “woman” has been so casually erased from state, public and charitable institutions, is deeply troubling. It’s so widespread too!

Are women with breasts not allowed to be mentioned any more? There was a time, before clean water and formula became available, when humanity depended on women with breasts for survival.

I would want all minorities to be treated with respect, but you don’t help their case by correspondingly alienating the majority.

I thought protecting a minority meant giving it equal rights as the majority, not allowing minority rights to take precedence over the whole.

I used to have a lot of respect for St John’s ambulance as they do a lot of good work but shame on you for this! Particularly when women’s cardiac issues are so overlooked, dismissed and mistreated, and by some wierd logic they think that not mentioning the word woman in this campaign is going to rectify the situation?

Also..... "Correct hand placement for CPR on a person with breasts may mean that your hands may touch some of the breast. This is okay."

JFC, do we really need to spell out that it's ok to touch someone's breast while performing life-saving treatment?! I actually despair

https://www.sja.org.uk/contact-us/comments-compliments-and-complaints/