People are just expecting you to join the dots @Glitterknickerbockers but you are clearly struggling to do that.

The sexual assault I experienced in a public toilet is the reason I don't want men in women's toilets. Any men. It's not difficult to understand!

“one was horrifically raped by a man, in a male toilet because he wanted to know what "having sex with a with a lady with a dick" was like. A key example of why trans women are not safe in male spaces”

It is an example of the risk that many male people experience in male single sex spaces.

It is and never was a reason to allow one group of male people into the female single sex spaces. It was, and still is a reason to have extensive campaigning to make sure male people are safe in their single sex toilets. Which to my knowledge has never been done.

So, to recap ... Men raping other men is a crime women are somehow culpable in. Because we refuse to lie and say these men are women.

Have I understood that correctly @Glitterknickerbockers ?

physical abuse from both men and women and one was horrifically raped by a man, in a male toilet because he wanted to know what "having sex with a with a lady with a dick" was like. A key example of why trans women are not safe in male spaces.

So men raping other men - what's that got to do with gender critical women? Can you not even see what you're doing here?

And you yourself agreed that women should have the right to their own single sex spaces. Are you reneging on that?

Why would men being unsafe because of the actions of other men be women's problem to solve? Why aren't you channelling your energy into campaigning for third spaces?

“it's having things shouted at them in the street by 'proud terfs',”

Really? Please give details. Plus how it was known these were ‘proud terfs’. Context is important here.

And any physical abuse should be reported to the police as it is a chargeable offence.

@Glitterknickerbockers So you're angry at posters on here for defending women's rights and spaces because your male friend was a victim of a MALE crime?

The attack you describe is obviously horrendous, but it's a male crime. And yet you're angry at women here??

And this:
Using transphobic slurs in everyday conversation because it is your right to not be kind only reinforces attitudes that this behaviour towards trans people is acceptable.

Please do explain the link between these so-called "transphobic slurs" and the male crime of rape, perpetrated by a male in a male space. And how women not "being kind" reinforces this disgusting male behaviour and somehow makes women responsible for them?

You came on here telling us we were awful people long before that poster responded to you. You know that. Yet you keep trying to use it as a distraction c,

None of us would condone criminal behaviour towards your friends. Why on earth would you think we would?

You have not demonstrated any clear criteria in identifying 'transphobic slurs' rather than blunt truth telling. If I call a man a man, it seems that that is a 'transphobic slur' in your eyes. Right?

Yes. Using the laughing emoji reaction on a post can be abusively used. There is little to be said to defend using it in that way.

Swearing? No. I don’t believe swearing is an act of abusive. It can be used to amplify abuse when attached to name calling. Such as ‘you are an ‘x’. A fucking ‘x’’ when x = a recognised slur. But simply swearing in a post is not abusive.

Again, shouting and swearing, using slurs and personal insults and accusing a SA survivor of lying is not robust challenging. It is abusive behaviour. I have seen Helle claim that simply using the laugh emoji is abusive yet you call this behaviour robust challenging instead of what it is? Hypocrisy at it's finest.

The abuse I have been 'banging on about' my friends suffering is not from keyboard warriors, it's having things shouted at them in the street by 'proud terfs', physical abuse from both men and women and one was horrifically raped by a man, in a male toilet because he wanted to know what "having sex with a with a lady with a dick" was like. A key example of why trans women are not safe in male spaces. Using transphobic slurs in everyday conversation because it is your right to not be kind only reinforces attitudes that this behaviour towards trans people is acceptable. Of course no one here has actually asked about this abuse or gives a shit as long as they stay out of your changing rooms and you can keep attacking people who have a problem with this behaviour.

I know you are not supporting males in female single sex spaces. I understood that you understand that just because a male person doesn’t have a penis anymore doesn’t remove their risk for committing violence, including sex crimes, against female people.

I was supporting you.

The difference is that those who have their penis and testes removed are no different to other men in my view. Because having them removed doesn’t change anything except that they no longer have a penis and testes. As you say, they don’t change sex.

We have so many people nowadays who are invested in the idea of themselves being a good person - and that, in itself is commendable of course.

But actually, societal understanding of what being a good person entails is now fatally flawed. What is being held up as 'good' is not leading to enhanced outcomes for society as a whole.

I probably got deleted because, for completeness, I referenced that these men can be a threat for reasons unrelated to strength or the presence of a working penis. To do with their psychology and sexuality

I don't believe in GI, or that people can change sex through medical treatment - but men who have had medical treatment differ from other men. So I suppose I'm defending the class of people who think they should be given concessions on that basis.

One. They might be less of a threat to women than other men are.

But, two, this is not a useful aid to regulating single-sex spaces, because we cannot tell by looking at them whether they have had the treatment.

So much of this comes down to the fact that we have no functioning moral frameworks to guide behaviour.

All people can do these days is be 'nice' to whoever is in front of them. Facilitating their demands. Without thinking at all about the impact those demands have on other people. Or even on the individuals themselves.

When we get to the point where truth telling is deemed problematic, we know we've lost the plot entirely.

How is it kind to allow someone to believe they are something they are objectively not? Haven’t we learned lessons from the past that this is not kind behaviour.

How is it kind is it to any female person to allow a male person to perpetuate misogyny, whether it is their intention to be misogynist or not?

How kind is it to believe that any person who has body parts removed or added is removed somehow from body categories that their body form still belongs in? And if that proposed category move doesn’t hold true for any other body change, why are we to be believe it is somehow true for this group of people

These are genuine questions. Because I would love to see the justification for all this ‘kindness’ that some people take pride in.

Oh absolutely people can make the case for surgical and hormonally modified male people. People can make cases for anything they want to in a free world. It doesn’t mean that they will succeed in achieving their aim though.

I noticed that we are no closer to getting any explanation about this ‘in between sexes’ works. But as far as I can work out it is a highly flawed position from the start. Simply cutting off body parts and artificially temporarily changing hormone levels doesn’t affect the very fundamental element that categorises sex. That position seems more like wishful thinking than an evidence based position.

But I am glad you gave it a crack to defend it theilltemperedqueenofspacetime. The position appears on this board often, and I haven’t seen a robust defence yet that didn’t rely on emotionally manipulative reasoning or gender identity theory that doesn’t stand up to basic scrutiny. Was it a good attempt that got deleted?

You make so much of one poster one here who answered you rather robustly. But long before that, you marched onto this threat, all guns blazing, to tell us how what awful people we are and how lovely your trans friends are.

Our crime? Defending women's spaces (which you much later decided we had the right to do).

Telling the 'cold hard truth' - so not lying then?

So that's the awful abuse you've been banging on about? 🙄

In the meantime, it transpires that you don't know if your 'lovely', 'harmless' friends are using women's spaces or not. You've never even thought to ask them.

But we're the abusive ones, right?

Ive also highlighted the horrific abuse that GC women have faced from people in the trans community for the terrible, awful crimes of telling the truth and defending our spaces. My question here is why have you never called out these actions? Why have you not factored in the horrendous abuse the GC side face? When you're telling us how awful we are?

So to conclude that it is our 'abuse' that is the issue here seems to say a lot about you - your values, your priorities. I expect that contradicts the self image you have about yourself, but we could all benefit from more truth telling, including you.

Oy! (Jumps up and down, waves arms.)

I defended transwomen. I argued that there is a colourable case for making concessions to men who have had hormonal and surgical treatment (albeit one that falls down for practical reasons).

And someone (narrowed eyes, hard Paddington stare) got my post deleted.

So I'm still waiting for your answer. If I encounter a man in the women's changing room, how can I possibly know what treatment he's had?

We were all fine with trans people for decades until they started infiltrating womens spaces. Then, it was game on. They bullied, abused, hounded, harassed and attacked and threatened until they completely broke down society's social contract that protected women and girls.

✍️👏

Yes Pri0n. The pattern you mention is very clear.

Brava!

Especially this:

We were all fine with trans people for decades until they started infiltrating womens spaces. Then, it was game on. They bullied, abused, hounded, harassed and attacked and threatened until they completely broke down society's social contract that protected women and girls.

Oh dear. Prion has been on FWR for a very long time.

Edited. Cross posted.

I’ve been here since 2017 and have used PriOn1 for years.

I recognise abusive behaviour patterns as I experienced them years ago at the hands of an ex boyfriend, who knew exactly what to say to cause me pain. He would wind me up to the point where I was incredibly angry, then look on with wide eyed innocence as I reacted, telling anyone within hearing, “Look how awful she is. It was always her who was abusive. I’ve done nothing. Look how reasonable I’m being compared to her.”

Fat Tony, aka Pig in a Wig chooses his victims using the same tactic. He makes a broad, inflammatory comment against gender critical (for want of a better term) women, sees who reacts, then begins to torment them.

It was very successful all those years ago as a tactic and narcissists love it as they crave attention and also showing people up in front of others, while delighting in that power trip as others vindicate them. It’s exactly why grey rock is an essential tactic, as soon as you recognise you’re being played.

We know that there is nothing 'kind' about encouraging any aspect of genderism. The cynical cruelty of the way it works through real human lives is obvious. So we reject it and reject the falsehood that gave rise to the 'bekind' hashtag.

Genderism is abuse, misogyny, homophobia, enforcement of stereotypes. It is not kindness.

blatantly saying the cold hard truth

Unfortunately we are in this horrendous mess because, way back when, people were not told the blatant truth.

Women have seen first hand where being kind got us in terms of gender identity. We played along with individual's feelings and wants of having an opposite gender identity to theor biological reality. In the mistaken belief that it was the kindest way. We ended up with our own rights being taken away. I will no longer be made to feel unhinged/hysterical/unkind for speaking the truth.