Does anyone else resent the gender/ TERF wars?

That’s the thing isn’t it?

Nobody ever bothered to ask if it was okay.

Men were pushed upon us, in tiny numbers to start with, and nobody said anything because it was just a few and it was a politeness.

Then the number grew, cross dressers and transvestites started to push the boundaries and areas like rape crisis and DV shelters were being targetted along with any and all groups set up exclusively for women. And when we woke up to it and started to object, it became apparent that trans activists had quietly moved into positions of influence, completely undermining everything women had.

It’s been achieved along the lines of a hostile business takeover, which is unsurprising really as it’s been driven by greedy US businessmen, to whom such tactics are very familiar. But now we have a huge problem as governments, police forces, universities, institutions and even groups like the UN and the WHO are fighting against women’s rights

Then, because of the above mentioned polite toleration of a few men, when we suddenly realized how deeply everything had been embedded, largely under the radar, we were accused of being unreasonable because we were taking away their “established rights”.

But is just us who are being unreasonable in saying no and are rude if we vent our anger at how badly we have been shafted. 🙄

Does anyone else resent the gender/ TERF wars?

Mostly I resent the way women are blamed for the "wars" and I resent the assumption that women are just being horrible to perfectly innocent and reasonable men who simply want to live their lives in a way that makes them happy. I resent the assertion that the men who claim womanhood "aren't harming anyone".

I also resent that women have to explain over and over and over that when a man is in a woman's space, the space becomes mixed sex. Doesn't matter what combination of surgeries/ no surgeries hormones/ no hormones titties/ no titties dresses/ no dress. Doesn't matter, still a man.

Did you report these issues? Did they get deleted? If they did, then job done. If they didn't then maybe it is your interpretation that doesn't match others interpretations or intentions.

You are here demonising women for not using the language that you want to be used. That is censuring whether it fits your description or not.

So we're overlooking the slurs, name-calling and accusations of lying about being a SA survivor. Cool.

they don't have the hormonal profile or standard physical characteristics of a male anymore.

And this really is where the logic falls apart.

Because that 'hormonal profile' is temporary, but more importantly, it is irrelevant. What is the relevance of a male person's artificially manipulated hormone profile? There are genuine medical reasons for male people to have higher oestrogen profiles for instance, that doesn't make those male people 'not male'. Just like a woman who is gravely ill and may have very high levels of testosterone for a female is not 'not female'.

A male with artificially manipulated hormone levels is only ever a male with artificially manipulated hormone levels.

And surgery. A male person who has had their penis and testicles surgically removed for any reason, is not a 'non-male'.

The only thing that defines a male person is that their body was formed around the production of small gametes, whether they did, do or will produce those. Regardless of whether they had testes and they were removed.

Every cell in that male person's body is coded as male.

People are free to believe whatever they want. But if you, a general you, wish to believe in misinformation that is your choice. No one else has to believe it or support your belief.

I think Glitter's entire presence on this thread has been an exercise in cognitive dissonance playing out in real time. As she realises that what her lovely transwomen friends want is in direct contrast to women's rights, safety and dignity. Except of course she will not clarify that with her friends, because I guess that's too risky/painful.

The whole response has been an attempt to at least maintain her world view - that she is a lovely person doing the right thing, while we FWR types are awful bigots. At the same time as slowly finding herself agreeing with the vast majority of FWR beliefs.

A lot of dishonestly and emotional manipulation are required to square that circle. As I said earlier, I've seen plenty of these techniques@ manifest before (particularly around tone and language).

But trying to make GC women somehow culpable when males rape other males is quite the low. I admit I'm shocked that Glitter went there.

There is now a lot of context and a lot of claims suddenly being made in an attempt to keep the upper hand. I no longer believe a word of it.

Others are free, of course, to draw their own conclusions.

But you wrote…

….they don't have the hormonal profile or standard physical characteristics of a male anymore.
Yes I know they still have male genetics and chromosomes and whatever else you all like to talk about here, but a male with no penis, breasts and a fuck tonne of estrogen in their body is categorically not as male as the day they were born….

I’m confused, surely the rapist wouldn’t have assumed it was a person with a penis if they don’t have the standard physical characteristics of male anymore ?

Maybe it’s because the trans person is your friend, you overlook the likelihood that they are still recognisable as the man he is… just a thought.

I do wonder. Of course, there are abusive people in all groups, but it seems less credible to think a feminist would be randomly abusing a male person. Context is key in this situation, I reckon.

Unless the men in question were protesting against a women’s gathering to stop the women speaking, in which case they were being abusive, this is where the claims made became entirely unbelievable for me. Gender critical women are broadly reasonable and don’t, in general, harass men going about their normal business.

I imagine there might be negative comments made, but the claim it was radical feminists carrying out that harassment on random individuals is nonsensical.

I agree and I believe the thread would have taken a different turn if Glitterknickerbockers had been clearer from the start.

As I said to them at the time:
You haven't been clear on your stance up to now though, either here or in past posts. So it's not wholly surprising that people didn't understand your beliefs.

The poster has been open about their opinion of "the FWR crowd" and I think there's an intention to not be wholly clear (or omit important details), sit back and watch people misinterpret one's position and get angry about it and then use that as "proof" one was correct all along about the FWR crowd.

It is contradictory. As is many arguments that we see from a small number of posters who rely on emotion to convince people that some male people are deserving of special considerations above other male people.

The point is, why is it relevant for us to ‘actually’ ask. Why is it relevant to the discussion about female single sex spaces? It is not. Unless you are invested in believing that female people should allow male people access or should simply acquiesce to having no single sex spaces and having their spaces made into mixed sex.

It is all part of that emotional reasoning, isn’t it? emotional reasoning can be powerful when combined with evidence and logic. But without the evidence or even logic, it is merely attempting to distract from an incohesive argument.

I think it is worth noting, in a very factual way, that @Glitterknickerbockers did not clarity their support of women's single sex spaces until quite a way into the thread.

Their opening gambit was very much focused on the awful TERFs and her lovely, harmless transwomen friends. Which Glitter does not know (it transpired much later) if they use women's spaces or not.

This is the point. There are other groups of male people who are just as vulnerable, in my opinion. But who are disregarded in the ideological attempt to leverage some male people into female toilets.

Gay male people.
Young male people.
Elderly male people.
Physically frail or weak male people.

There are so many others. All side lined in this attempt to somehow create a theory to support one group’s access to female single sex space.

Because of those other groups are so unsafe that they need to be also moved for protection, there needs to be something desperately done to make all male spaces safe for all male people.

@Glitterknickerbockers on the one hand you say "I believe women deserve single sex spaces"

while on the other you say "Of course no one here has actually asked about this abuse or gives a shit as long as they stay out of your changing rooms and you can keep attacking people who have a problem with this behaviour"

So you do think women should have single sex spaces? But at the same time you're criticising posters here for wanting single sex spaces?
It's contradictory.

'If women don't require single sex spaces to be safe from men, why do trans-women need access to single sex spaces to be safe from men?'

And this is another logic trap that those who attempt to leverage males into female single sex spaces don't understand.

Along with, 'any predator can just walk into that space'. err... no shit Sherlock. And therefore if any predator can just walk in, then logically it is also not safe for those male people either.

So, why are they seeking security in a space that is so open to predators?? Do they really think that that logic holds up? Or do they believe that female people are protective shields for real?

When you start scrutinising the arguments, they all seem to crumble.

And 'proud terfs'?

In the same thread as demonising women for using offensive language.

There was a meme about males needing safety from other males. Can't find the image but the words were:

'If women don't require single sex spaces to be safe from men, why do trans-women need access to single sex spaces to be safe from men?'

I agree with every word @UrsulasHerbBag 👏

I don't mind telling people about my experience. But I really, REALLY don't think any woman should have to describe this about herself if she doesn't want to. Like some kind of "evidence" or justification FFS.

I'm ok doing that particularly in real life because to be honest I like to see people's reactions. I was having a conversation with a TWAW be-kinder person recently and it was all so theoretical. So I thought I'd bring reality into it. My reality. To make that person really think.
My right to not be kind, as it's been called above.

and one was horrifically raped by a man, in a male toilet because he wanted to know what "having sex with a with a lady with a dick" was like. A key example of why trans women are not safe in male spaces.

Others have got here before me with this. A male crime towards another male. Why do you think it's a problem for women to solve?

@Greyskybluesky i agree with you. I am so tired of telling people about my sexual assault as an 11 year old girl in a changing room. I am sick of having to dredge it up and what’s worse is the countless other women on here with the same stories having to do the same. If we open up our spaces to men who say they are women so they can avoid the male facilities who next? Feminine gay men? Men who are smaller and weigh less? Then where? Mental health facilities? Prisons? How do we police which are the safe men and which are the predators saying they need access to our spaces? We can’t. So we say NO MALES.

No is enough.

I remember a poster who goaded the thread that they believed no one had been abused by a male person with a transgender identity before. And of course, many of us have. I am sorry that you feel you have to do this grey. I know of others who have too. I have been abused by male people with transgender identities but not assaulted. It takes some fucking entrenched thinking to believe that women are just speaking from hate.

But I guess if you have allowed yourself to be convinced that they have, I guess you feel free to demonise those who reject your beliefs.

The sexual assault I experienced in a public toilet is the reason I don't want men in women's toilets. Any men. It's not difficult to understand!

Quoting myself here! 👆But just wanted to add I am so sick of women having to use their own experiences of assault/rape to justify why they don't want men in women's toilets.
I have just done that above and I've chosen to do it and I'm comfortable with that. But not all women will be or should be. And that's enough! Just "no" is enough. We don't have to explain ourselves or describe a traumatic experience. These are OUR spaces. No is enough.

Yup, I think you have. Women are culpable for everything.

There is no logic behind allowing any group of vulnerable male people access single sex provisions.

That logic relies on those male people vulnerable to male attack are a) not male too and b) all those groups should be given access to a female single sex space in the lack of a mixed sex option being available.

Again, the logic is flawed and relies on emotionally manipulative tactics to convince others and false information such as ‘those male people are ‘inbetween’ sexes.