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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

People with a cervix

342 replies

Globules · 28/02/2025 18:20

This has really annoyed me.

Official documentation from the NHS, aka the national medical professionals, should know that it's ONLY women who have a cervix.

What is this non sentence of all women and people with a cervix?

People with a cervix
OP posts:
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6
Witchlite · 02/03/2025 14:02

Catza · 28/02/2025 18:42

Are you transgender? If not, then it's not your place to say.

This is just wrong. Transgender people are important, but … not most or more important than any body else.

where we are talking about a sex class, it is most important to refer to the sex class eg female. FYI I’m female, but following cancer, I no longer have a cervix. Why are trans people’s feelings more important than mine?

All humans should have equality. Over the last decade, tran class of people have demanded to sit at the top of the pyramid- this is wrong and changing - thankfully!

Firstofall · 02/03/2025 13:51

But the use of phrases like 'women and people with a cervix' is probably going to be confusing, or alienating, to a larger number of women than the tiny number of women who [a] identify as transmen and b] mistakenly think they do not have a cervix though they were born female.

@MarieDeGournay I do see what you mean and absolutely agree to a large extent. Certainly causes confusion. Alienation yes, but to the extent women won’t attend I’m not sure.
I think some trans people have such a ‘them against the world’ attitude now that they are easier to alienate. Not that they don’t believe they have a cervix but that they’d feel unwelcome iyswim. I do consider trans to be mostly a MH condition in women at least.

I’d reserve using these sort of terms only where the medical importance of the procedures outweigh general sensitivities and would hope that the wording could be changed back in time as society moves on. A slippery slope I know.

I know one young transman personally. She has a lot of issues. I suppose I’m thinking of her and what she’d likely do in this situation. She’s very sensitive and all mixed-up. It is very hard to see the damage this ideology has done. But I think she should be encouraged to attend cancer screening too…

I don’t know how we got here, it’s madness 😕

AnSolas · 02/03/2025 13:42

The were trying to be inclusive in terms of transmen and non-binary people who were female. Not inclusive in terms of providing a service to transwomen as they don’t have a cervix.
They messed up the wording at first clearly, but it had nothing to do with them trying to provide a service for any males however they identify.

This happened after 2015. The health service /CC were being lobbied so they have a duty to understand their legal obligations when looking at the group being lobbied for. One individual who claimed to be responsible for the lobbying was a female who likely had a GRC (so a GRC man).

Removing women and only use people with a cervix would be Race and Traveller community discrimination under the Equal Status Act 2000.

GRC men are women with no legal rights to access womens only services.

Providing services is woman sex specific and transmen who opt to get a GRC are men and male under Irish law but are people with a cervix.

So a "GRC woman" with a penis has a lawful right to have his cerxiv examined under the CCs remit. However he has no clinical need as he is a person without a cervix.

Here person will be women:

(6(4)) The Board shall implement special measures to promote participation in its Programmes by disadvantaged persons.

The CC is charged with total oversight of a specific female only cancer. Thats the whole cancer cycle and policy will cover prevention to treatment to delay the death of the woman.
The women that CC were in court against were people without a cervix
Some of whom may still have has a need for post-op screening as a surgical removal can not guarantee that a woman is 100% clear of cervical cells.
But all of whom were still within CC care/remit as the objective was screen and treat.

Thats why wording matters.

An audit is a retrospective review of cytology, which is a very good thing from a scientific point of view.
The "audit review" that VP's medical file was subjected to is not an audit in the real meaning of the word.

Her file is a single event with a known outcome as the process began when her hospital notified the CC that she had cancer and a history of clear tests.

At that stage it is a fact that there is cancer.
The review is to establish
• if the cancer /pre-cancer was missed
• if the miss was avoidable.

In audit terms one case has little value as it is a single sample so too narrow a scope to fully test the service provider.

In VPs case her test was in 2011(?) cancer detected 2014 and the CC had the results of the investigation in 2016.

At that stage 2016 it is a fact that there is cancer and there was evidence of this on her test.
The court case was to establish
• if the miss was avoidable.

If CC were using that as a quality control measure they have timing issue of 5 years of unreliable screening (Effectively 100% of the women being screened through that single lab could need an urgent retest in 2016 )

In this case they identified which women’s samples gave discordant results during the audit and it’s a check to ensure those rates are within identified standard levels. It’s a tool to help identify if or where things are going wrong.

The CC knew going in which womens files were to be examined. It was not a random sample. At that stage it was a specific investigation. It was not if the slide have been marked clear or not. Rather what was the evidence in the slide that showed VP had a risk and how was it missed. Effectively its investigating one team who managed that slide as a workflow.

An external quality control audit by the CC is an ongoing process. So fixed timing and needs to be appropiate sized random sampling and across all the labs. Its not as if CC are not testing or reviewing work product.

MarieDeGournay · 02/03/2025 12:44

Firstofall · 02/03/2025 12:10

I agree with all of that.

I think what government organisations are doing now is nonsensical from a political point of view as well as harmful to women in general, and that trans activists should have far less influence than they do. I hope the power of this ideology has peaked now and will decline as more people become clued into what’s being going on? Maybe a vain hope, I’m not sure.

BUT I appreciate why medical organisations use the terminology they do too at this point in time just from a human point of view. The trans population includes women who are mentally unwell, or autistic, or abused, who identify as men in large part because of their struggles…they still need physical care and you don’t want to alienate them. And screening programmes always aim to cover as much of the population as possible to be effective too.

I totally agree with your careful and well-argued comments on the CervicalCheck 'scandal'.

But I disagree with you about the need to add something to the term 'woman' in case a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage may mistakenly believe the term 'woman' doesn't apply to them.

I think this is at the heart of the objections to circumlocutions like 'people with a cervix' 'birthing parents' 'chest-feeding' : the vast majority of people know what 'man' and 'woman' mean, even those who have decided to identify with the opposite sex - the majority will be fully aware that they started out biologically male or female, and that they retain medically-significant features of their original sex.

I'm all in favour of staff being trained to be aware that they may encounter women who present as men, and they should deal with them respectfully.

But the use of phrases like 'women and people with a cervix' is probably going to be confusing, or alienating, to a larger number of women than the tiny number of women who [a] identify as transmen and b] mistakenly think they do not have a cervix though they were born female.

It seems disproportionate - which is why neologisms and circumlocutions like 'cis' and 'birthing parent' are unacceptable to so many people. Such a largescale interference in everyday language at the behest of such a tiny proportion of the population doesn't feel right.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/03/2025 12:41

The arrogance & deeply entrenched anti women attitudes of the NHS and the medical professionals who work in it seems to know no bounds. Two shameful stories from today's press. The Telegraph reporting on the continued use of the vile phrase "birthing people" by maternity services:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/03/02/nhs-mothers-birthing-people-wes-streeting-woke-crackdown/
Archive link: https://archive.ph/Ylhr5

I'm sharing this because it highlights the same professional arrogance and disrespect for women / parents that removing the the language of women demonstrates. The Times reporting on one of the numerous maternity care scandals where a baby died despite both parents actually working for the hospital. The subsequent lies, abuse of the parents, abuse of the baby's body demonstrates a service completely unfit to treat patients.
Yet as usual, no consequences for any staff whatsoever. Warning - it's truly shocking story so read with caution:

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/nhs-mocked-me-baby-died-nottingham-hospital-trust-5mp638zph

https://archive.ph/FlUQI

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 02/03/2025 12:38

The confusion is a problem of trans-identifying people's own making. The only reason the confusion exists is because genderists pretend the word woman means something it never did, nor does now.

Quite. It is not ok to unilaterally change how another category of human beings has always been defined, without their permission, thereby allowing yourself to be included in that group. Especially when that will allow members of one group of people to identify into the group that theirs has historically and systematically abused and oppressed.

Besides which, it just makes you sound bloody ridiculous. You might just as well say that giraffes now count as cats, or (more disturbingly) that 40 year-olds count as children.

Firstofall · 02/03/2025 12:10

Merrymouse · 02/03/2025 11:32

"But some people won’t accept the existing word **. Isn’t that the issue?"

How can they begin to accept the idea that 'woman' refers simply to sex if organisations keep communicating their agreement that 'woman' refers to a set of regressive stereotypes? Isn't this actively harmful to all woman?

How do you clearly communicate that a variant BRCA gene can greatly increases a woman's chance of developing both breast cancer and ovarian cancer if you can't talk about women as a sex? Do you just talk about people with breasts and ovaries? Or people with breasts and people with 'chests', except not that kind of chest, because we aren't talking about lung cancer? How do you then talk about the fact that men with this gene also have an increased chance of breast and prostate cancer? Do you call them 'people with a prostate, but without breasts, except they have enough breast to get cancer'. How do you talk about different rates of breast cancer in men and women?

At some point is it not just better to persuade people that they need to be able to talk about sex?

I agree with all of that.

I think what government organisations are doing now is nonsensical from a political point of view as well as harmful to women in general, and that trans activists should have far less influence than they do. I hope the power of this ideology has peaked now and will decline as more people become clued into what’s being going on? Maybe a vain hope, I’m not sure.

BUT I appreciate why medical organisations use the terminology they do too at this point in time just from a human point of view. The trans population includes women who are mentally unwell, or autistic, or abused, who identify as men in large part because of their struggles…they still need physical care and you don’t want to alienate them. And screening programmes always aim to cover as much of the population as possible to be effective too.

Merrymouse · 02/03/2025 11:32

Firstofall · 02/03/2025 11:09

But some people won’t accept the existing word @Merrymouse. Isn’t that the issue?
If you’re doing something like cervical screening one of your priorities is not to alienate people, to engage as much of the female population as you can.

Another priority, of course, is communication and Ireland’s CervicalCheck certainly messed that up by leaving out the word women completely for a while! Apart from anything else, not everyone knows what a cervix is!!!

Anyway, they put women back in after numerous complaints…it was a very stupid decision but it was rectified. I think it does say ‘women and people with a cervix’ now too.

"But some people won’t accept the existing word **. Isn’t that the issue?"

How can they begin to accept the idea that 'woman' refers simply to sex if organisations keep communicating their agreement that 'woman' refers to a set of regressive stereotypes? Isn't this actively harmful to all woman?

How do you clearly communicate that a variant BRCA gene can greatly increases a woman's chance of developing both breast cancer and ovarian cancer if you can't talk about women as a sex? Do you just talk about people with breasts and ovaries? Or people with breasts and people with 'chests', except not that kind of chest, because we aren't talking about lung cancer? How do you then talk about the fact that men with this gene also have an increased chance of breast and prostate cancer? Do you call them 'people with a prostate, but without breasts, except they have enough breast to get cancer'. How do you talk about different rates of breast cancer in men and women?

At some point is it not just better to persuade people that they need to be able to talk about sex?

Ingenieur · 02/03/2025 11:23

Firstofall · 02/03/2025 11:09

But some people won’t accept the existing word @Merrymouse. Isn’t that the issue?
If you’re doing something like cervical screening one of your priorities is not to alienate people, to engage as much of the female population as you can.

Another priority, of course, is communication and Ireland’s CervicalCheck certainly messed that up by leaving out the word women completely for a while! Apart from anything else, not everyone knows what a cervix is!!!

Anyway, they put women back in after numerous complaints…it was a very stupid decision but it was rectified. I think it does say ‘women and people with a cervix’ now too.

The confusion is a problem of trans-identifying people's own making. The only reason the confusion exists is because genderists pretend the word woman means something it never did, nor does now.

The capitulation to their beliefs is what caused the problem, so the answer isn't to double-down on incorrect language, it's to revert to clear language.

Firstofall · 02/03/2025 11:09

Merrymouse · 02/03/2025 10:56

Wouldn't it be great if there were a word that could describe this group that didn't imply anything about gender identity.

But some people won’t accept the existing word @Merrymouse. Isn’t that the issue?
If you’re doing something like cervical screening one of your priorities is not to alienate people, to engage as much of the female population as you can.

Another priority, of course, is communication and Ireland’s CervicalCheck certainly messed that up by leaving out the word women completely for a while! Apart from anything else, not everyone knows what a cervix is!!!

Anyway, they put women back in after numerous complaints…it was a very stupid decision but it was rectified. I think it does say ‘women and people with a cervix’ now too.

Merrymouse · 02/03/2025 10:56

Firstofall · 02/03/2025 10:45

Their job was to look at the whole population they were established to serve. That population was only women. They could add in extra supports for sub-groups but that is different from removing their core objective.
And as I pointed out before a GRC man has no legal righ to the cervical cancer screening service. The CC had no legal basis to organise any provision for these men.
@AnSolas
The were trying to be inclusive in terms of transmen and non-binary people who were female. Not inclusive in terms of providing a service to transwomen as they don’t have a cervix.
They messed up the wording at first clearly, but it had nothing to do with them trying to provide a service for any males however they identify.
Many of the activists putting pressure on the government are male so they were involved from that pov I guess, but the wording was not designed to be inclusive of biological males. The aim was to be inclusive of biological females who do not identify as women.

In Anglo terms the "audit" was not an "audit of the system" but rather a fraud investigation. CC found the "loans" and they were looking to see if there it was a process failure or a "second process".
Sorry, can’t let this go. What are you talking about? That’s not what happened at all. Fraud? An audit is a retrospective review of cytology, which is a very good thing from a scientific point of view. Many countries do this, though not all. It is a very good thing in terms of quality assurance, to ensure everything is working as expected.

In this case they identified which women’s samples gave discordant results during the audit and it’s a check to ensure those rates are within identified standard levels. It’s a tool to help identify if or where things are going wrong.

Communication with the women involved was completely and utterly messed up. This was devastating news for anyone to hear and there were arguments about who had the responsibility to communicate the results. (The majority of countries who perform these audits don’t disclose the results by the way.) Ireland took a decision to disclose these sorts of results but the manner of the communication was handled terribly if it was handled at all.

That the audits were suspended following the scandal was without doubt a retrograde step, but probably an inevitable one in terms of the costs now unfortunately. I don’t know if they have been or will be restarted.

Wouldn't it be great if there were a word that could describe this group that didn't imply anything about gender identity.

Firstofall · 02/03/2025 10:45

Their job was to look at the whole population they were established to serve. That population was only women. They could add in extra supports for sub-groups but that is different from removing their core objective.
And as I pointed out before a GRC man has no legal righ to the cervical cancer screening service. The CC had no legal basis to organise any provision for these men.
@AnSolas
The were trying to be inclusive in terms of transmen and non-binary people who were female. Not inclusive in terms of providing a service to transwomen as they don’t have a cervix.
They messed up the wording at first clearly, but it had nothing to do with them trying to provide a service for any males however they identify.
Many of the activists putting pressure on the government are male so they were involved from that pov I guess, but the wording was not designed to be inclusive of biological males. The aim was to be inclusive of biological females who do not identify as women.

In Anglo terms the "audit" was not an "audit of the system" but rather a fraud investigation. CC found the "loans" and they were looking to see if there it was a process failure or a "second process".
Sorry, can’t let this go. What are you talking about? That’s not what happened at all. Fraud? An audit is a retrospective review of cytology, which is a very good thing from a scientific point of view. Many countries do this, though not all. It is a very good thing in terms of quality assurance, to ensure everything is working as expected.

In this case they identified which women’s samples gave discordant results during the audit and it’s a check to ensure those rates are within identified standard levels. It’s a tool to help identify if or where things are going wrong.

Communication with the women involved was completely and utterly messed up. This was devastating news for anyone to hear and there were arguments about who had the responsibility to communicate the results. (The majority of countries who perform these audits don’t disclose the results by the way.) Ireland took a decision to disclose these sorts of results but the manner of the communication was handled terribly if it was handled at all.

That the audits were suspended following the scandal was without doubt a retrograde step, but probably an inevitable one in terms of the costs now unfortunately. I don’t know if they have been or will be restarted.

MrGHardy · 02/03/2025 10:07

This is hilarious. They cry about defining woman via biology, only to turn around and define a group of people via biology.

AnSolas · 02/03/2025 07:39

ExitPursuedByAPolarBear · 02/03/2025 03:45

@cherish123 I believe that would be considered transphobic. Wasn’t there a poster that was taken down because it had the dictionary definition of woman/women? I remember reading about it on MN.

@ExitPursuedByAPolarBear enjoy

d

@Firstofall
The reason that one puts in 2 people to do the same job is that one expects 2 different opinions.
Each staff member looks at the silde and applies their opinion. Its a judgement call so 2 tests should lower the risk.
That is a physical control as without 2 people the workflow stops. So the labs processing capacity is zero over that teams holiday period.

In Anglo terms the "audit" was not an "audit of the system" but rather a fraud investigation. CC found the "loans" and they were looking to see if there it was a process failure or a "second process".
From memory in one case a US lab managed US workflow and Irish workflow. The US and Irish samples had a timing issue. Eg the both sample was "off" by 4.9% and the cutoff was 5% for more frequent testing. Both are under 5% so both pass the test. In the US the woman was on 1-2 year testing so her risk of developing cancer is the same as the Irish woman. But the gap 2y v 5y between testing should result in an additional step. The tester needs to think "is my 4.9% opinion correct" and "is there anyone who may have more/different experience who can look st the slide".
That process was found to be weak.

So the look back "audit" raised questions about how effective controls were.

Anyway
As for not using women its a you have one job argument. The CC has an independant board so cant go with everyone else was doing it.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/si/632/made/en/print

Their job was to look at the whole population they were established to serve. That population was only women. They could add in extra supports for sub-groups but that is different from removing their core objective.

And as I pointed out before a GRC man has no legal righ to the cervical cancer screening service. The CC had no legal basis to organise any provision for these men.

The best CC could do is propose that the Minister set up a special programme for them and to look at breast cancer and other female cancers too.

ExitPursuedByAPolarBear · 02/03/2025 03:45

cherish123 · 02/03/2025 00:18

Or just say "women".

@cherish123 I believe that would be considered transphobic. Wasn’t there a poster that was taken down because it had the dictionary definition of woman/women? I remember reading about it on MN.

Firstofall · 02/03/2025 01:57

AnSolas · 01/03/2025 22:40

@Firstofall there were issues with the labs.
Slides which showed abnormalities were given the all clear

When VP [REDACTED] was diagnosed with cervical cancer in 2014, an audit was carried out by CervicalCheck of her smears, as is the protocol when a woman who has previously had a smear test receives a cervical cancer diagnosis, in an attempt to improve the system.
Despite this, and against best practice, VP was not told of the audit or the result of it until 2017 – a year after her doctor was first informed about it. The audit found that the result was a ‘false negative’ – which meant that abnormalities were present in her earlier smear, despite it being reported to her as negative.
‘False negatives’ fall into two categories:
• cervical cell abnormalities that most screeners would not have detected, and
• ones that most screeners would have detected.
Which category a false negative result would fall into depends on each individual smear.

PC [REDACTED], a 51-year-old mother of four, received an out-of-court settlement of €2.75 million and an apology in October 2020. Two months later, she had died. Three of her smear tests – in 2014, 2016 and 2019 – were reported as having no abnormalities. Five months after the 2019 result, she was diagnosed with cervical cancer which had spread to her lymph nodes.

For example, Ireland’s CervicalCheck leaflets said that cervical smear screenings “are not 100% accurate”, where as information in Northern Ireland and Wales gave more detailed information of accuracy (“prevents 7 out of 10 cervical cancers”, “75% accurate”).

Most is the human error part of the screening as its a subjective process.
Per the UK It has a 30%/ 25% failure rate
So if your slide is examined you had a 25%ish chance that your pre-cancer cells were not detected.
Some of that will be down to the training given or how experience the individual is detecting abnormalities as its not a Y/N process.
If my memory is correct one lab had 1 person looking at the slide and made a solo decision a different lab had 2 independent people look at the same slide. The 2nd person is a control as (hopefully ) one is fail, one is pass so the slide gets an additional test process.
If you have 3 tests over a short period of time you would be very unlucky to get 3 clear tests and be found to have progressed to secondary cancer 5 months after the last.

Not sure which controls you mean specifically. The audits themselves were a safety mechanism.

Audits are not a safety mechanism

Remember Anglo and the Directors Loans?
The accounts passed the audit by getting the loans moved for a single day while routing the transaction outside the scope of the employees who were responsible for loans and bypassing control functions by having 2 process. Directors ticked the box no loans on 31/12/YY and audit of system proved no loans on the books that day.

Audits examine how robust the process is and how closely employees follow the process method.

The investigation, dubbed ‘The RCog Review’, found that the screening service is “in line with internationally respectable programmes”.

Out of a total of 1,038 women or their families who agreed to take part, the review disagreed with the CervicalCheck diagnoses in 308 cases (30%). In 159 of these cases (15%), the RCog Expert Panel “considered that the CervicalCheck result had an adverse affect on the woman’s outcome”.

So the safety is the process used to minimise human error.
The audit finds all the "uncrossed T's and undotted I's" with in a test sample
But if staff are looking at 100% of the slides and as expect every 4th slide result is wrong and on average that happens with the sample the system works with in the agreed failure rate.

CC needed a manual that duplicated the expected workflow from when the slide arrived to when the lab sent the result back to CC.
And samples of what was a "clean" to a "questionable" to a "problem" slide. The expectation would be that a good number would not be text book clean or problem.
The important ones being the questionable and how each should be managed.

So a "training manual for dummys" with
if slide
• looks like X go to page 3 go down the list and if too many boxes are ticked do Z
• looks like Y go to page 5 go down the list and if too many boxes are ticked do Z
is documented

That is what a trained experienced person is doing as they look but it having an agreeded method which documents that on paper.

In relation to the procurement process for hiring laboratories, the Scoping Inquiry said that the State didn’t place enough emphasis on quality assurances: the report said of a 2008 tender that it “underspecifies detail in respect of expected service and quality levels and quality”; in a 2010 request for proposals, the report said “service and quality remain underspecified”.

Its not possible for CC to audit what has not been agreed or what is not documented.

meant people women weren’t being treated for cancer on purpose.

Thats poor listening on behalf of the individual as VP's case and the whole thing had multiple investigative programs run around that time.

I don’t agree Cervical Check has an anti-woman bias, though it’s true their literature tried taking out the word woman for a while too. We used to call it ‘political correctness gone mad’ in the old days. Anyway, they were told, and they put woman back in. I’d be more concerned that they now communicate that screening helps but is not infallible.

I disagree that it was just PC at the time banks were creating polish documentation to assist the Polish population access services, yet a female cancer service was choosing to move to using a body part when poor education or non english speaking as a first language creates a barrier.

The government policy was use simple direct plain english to communicate and write documentation.
The change was due to lobbying by individuals who were vocally anti-women when the CC was asked to put the word woman back. And from memory the message and women involved were not welcomed by CC staff.
Other Health staff were boasting on twitter how they too were removing the word woman. Plus the trope women are people was rolled out to justify the people with a cervix.

@AnSolas
Not sure if I’ve followed all that, but just to reply to a few things that jumped out…

there were issues with the labs.
Slides which showed abnormalities were given the all clear.
But it is normal to find discordant results upon review (worldwide). The screening process everywhere at the time missed maybe 1 in 4 cases as you know. The labs Ireland used performed to international standards. HPV testing has come on line now so fewer cases are missed but it’s still an imperfect system. You can’t decrease the false negatives to zero (at the moment anyway) without vastly increasing the number of false positives. False positives also cause harm so it’s a balancing act unfortunately.

Having two or three false negatives is unlucky, but it will happen to 1 or 2% of women who should have got a positive result, so not terribly out of the ordinary regrettably.

A 2nd scientist doing the screening is not referred to as the control. This is not what a control means in scientific terms.

Audits are a safety mechanism in the sense that they should alert you if a lab is having problems or underperforming, or if there are any other issues that cause the data to deviate from standards. In this case the audits re-examined the samples.
Anglo isn’t relevant here?

Thats poor listening on behalf of the individual as VP's case and the whole thing had multiple investigative programs run around that time.
Maybe, but there was huge misunderstanding at the time and still is to an extent. Many journalists either didn’t understand themselves - this was certainly the case at the beginning - or didn’t make things clear enough in their articles to inform people properly.

Regarding the removal of the word woman, it was HSE policy, not just a cervical check decision. Yes, I’m certain they were influenced by activists. The whole thing was obviously ridiculous I know. Anyway they saw sense finally and put it back.

I think I’ve derailed enough now!! Apologies again to OP and I’m going to leave it at that.

cherish123 · 02/03/2025 00:18

ExpressCheckout · 28/02/2025 18:40

How about simply replacing the word with 'people born female', then it would include everyone it needs to include.

Or just say "women".

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/03/2025 23:21

AubernFable · 28/02/2025 23:17

I consider myself an intersectional feminist, not a TERF, but very much a feminist.

It’s disrespectful to talk about people I care about in such a way regardless of your beliefs.

It's disrespectful to impose upon women (in the original sex-based meaning) a redefintion of the words we use to name ourselves in society and law. It changes us without our consent from a group of people who simply share a fact of the body to a group of people who share a similar type of mind, a mind that conforms to old fashioned ideas about how men and women think, act and feel.

The bald and simple fact is that if society accepts trans gender identities in practice, language or law as being anything more than "a person who wishes to be seen and treated as the opposite sex", if it accepts there is something actually innately different about trans people to others of their sex that justifies treating them as not of their sex, it is unavoidably imposing on to everyone else a new, unwanted identity based on sexist stereotypes.

It astounds me that genderists cannot see this. It's not about "trans people being themselves", it's that their beliefs about themselves are based on a projection of their prejudices about sex and gender onto everyone else.

"Trans woman", "trans man", "non binary" - these things only make sense if you implicity accept everyone who is not claiming to be "trans" or "non - binary" has a manly or womanly mind that aligns with their body.

That is the problem with "women and trans men" - that if a person can be female bodied but not a woman, "woman" no longer means anyone with a female body, it means "people with a womanny mind". That's what women are rejected - being labelled as something we are not, something most of us find sexist and degrading, simply because that is how trans people mistakenly see us, something they need to believe we are to support their own self image. And yet this is apparently not acceptable. Trans people must be who they say they are, and so everyone else must be who trans people say we are too.

Once you realise there are apparently countless variations of gender yet no space in the belief system for people who understand and accept the body they have is a material unalterable fact and also do not think that fact implies anything about their personality or so-called "gender identity" (whether cis or trans), no space for a woman to say "I'm just female, I don't identify as a trans man but I don't have the inner gender of a trans woman and I'd like a female-only space please that is based on the shared experience of our bodies not some sort of similarity of mind" even though it is the reaction of society to our bodies that is the source of the sexism we face, you see how controlling and sexist this self-styled "progressive" movement is.

AnSolas · 01/03/2025 22:40

@Firstofall there were issues with the labs.
Slides which showed abnormalities were given the all clear

When VP [REDACTED] was diagnosed with cervical cancer in 2014, an audit was carried out by CervicalCheck of her smears, as is the protocol when a woman who has previously had a smear test receives a cervical cancer diagnosis, in an attempt to improve the system.
Despite this, and against best practice, VP was not told of the audit or the result of it until 2017 – a year after her doctor was first informed about it. The audit found that the result was a ‘false negative’ – which meant that abnormalities were present in her earlier smear, despite it being reported to her as negative.
‘False negatives’ fall into two categories:
• cervical cell abnormalities that most screeners would not have detected, and
• ones that most screeners would have detected.
Which category a false negative result would fall into depends on each individual smear.

PC [REDACTED], a 51-year-old mother of four, received an out-of-court settlement of €2.75 million and an apology in October 2020. Two months later, she had died. Three of her smear tests – in 2014, 2016 and 2019 – were reported as having no abnormalities. Five months after the 2019 result, she was diagnosed with cervical cancer which had spread to her lymph nodes.

For example, Ireland’s CervicalCheck leaflets said that cervical smear screenings “are not 100% accurate”, where as information in Northern Ireland and Wales gave more detailed information of accuracy (“prevents 7 out of 10 cervical cancers”, “75% accurate”).

Most is the human error part of the screening as its a subjective process.
Per the UK It has a 30%/ 25% failure rate
So if your slide is examined you had a 25%ish chance that your pre-cancer cells were not detected.
Some of that will be down to the training given or how experience the individual is detecting abnormalities as its not a Y/N process.
If my memory is correct one lab had 1 person looking at the slide and made a solo decision a different lab had 2 independent people look at the same slide. The 2nd person is a control as (hopefully ) one is fail, one is pass so the slide gets an additional test process.
If you have 3 tests over a short period of time you would be very unlucky to get 3 clear tests and be found to have progressed to secondary cancer 5 months after the last.

Not sure which controls you mean specifically. The audits themselves were a safety mechanism.

Audits are not a safety mechanism

Remember Anglo and the Directors Loans?
The accounts passed the audit by getting the loans moved for a single day while routing the transaction outside the scope of the employees who were responsible for loans and bypassing control functions by having 2 process. Directors ticked the box no loans on 31/12/YY and audit of system proved no loans on the books that day.

Audits examine how robust the process is and how closely employees follow the process method.

The investigation, dubbed ‘The RCog Review’, found that the screening service is “in line with internationally respectable programmes”.

Out of a total of 1,038 women or their families who agreed to take part, the review disagreed with the CervicalCheck diagnoses in 308 cases (30%). In 159 of these cases (15%), the RCog Expert Panel “considered that the CervicalCheck result had an adverse affect on the woman’s outcome”.

So the safety is the process used to minimise human error.
The audit finds all the "uncrossed T's and undotted I's" with in a test sample
But if staff are looking at 100% of the slides and as expect every 4th slide result is wrong and on average that happens with the sample the system works with in the agreed failure rate.

CC needed a manual that duplicated the expected workflow from when the slide arrived to when the lab sent the result back to CC.
And samples of what was a "clean" to a "questionable" to a "problem" slide. The expectation would be that a good number would not be text book clean or problem.
The important ones being the questionable and how each should be managed.

So a "training manual for dummys" with
if slide
• looks like X go to page 3 go down the list and if too many boxes are ticked do Z
• looks like Y go to page 5 go down the list and if too many boxes are ticked do Z
is documented

That is what a trained experienced person is doing as they look but it having an agreeded method which documents that on paper.

In relation to the procurement process for hiring laboratories, the Scoping Inquiry said that the State didn’t place enough emphasis on quality assurances: the report said of a 2008 tender that it “underspecifies detail in respect of expected service and quality levels and quality”; in a 2010 request for proposals, the report said “service and quality remain underspecified”.

Its not possible for CC to audit what has not been agreed or what is not documented.

meant people women weren’t being treated for cancer on purpose.

Thats poor listening on behalf of the individual as VP's case and the whole thing had multiple investigative programs run around that time.

I don’t agree Cervical Check has an anti-woman bias, though it’s true their literature tried taking out the word woman for a while too. We used to call it ‘political correctness gone mad’ in the old days. Anyway, they were told, and they put woman back in. I’d be more concerned that they now communicate that screening helps but is not infallible.

I disagree that it was just PC at the time banks were creating polish documentation to assist the Polish population access services, yet a female cancer service was choosing to move to using a body part when poor education or non english speaking as a first language creates a barrier.

The government policy was use simple direct plain english to communicate and write documentation.
The change was due to lobbying by individuals who were vocally anti-women when the CC was asked to put the word woman back. And from memory the message and women involved were not welcomed by CC staff.
Other Health staff were boasting on twitter how they too were removing the word woman. Plus the trope women are people was rolled out to justify the people with a cervix.

northwestgirl · 01/03/2025 21:07

Everyone knows that only women have a cervix,
actually this isn't true
plenty of men and some women would struggle to explain what a cervix is
people with ESOL, people with learning difficulties, people with poor education may not know what a cervix is or that only women have one

this wording is fine
women- 'ah, yes, that means me, I'm a woman so I should pay attention to this, or get someone to read it to me...'
'and people with a cervix'- oh, yes, that's me I suppose, even if I'd rather not have a cervix I guess I'd better get checked out'

Most of us TERFs include transmen in our feminism. I don't want any women dying of cervical cancer, even if they 'identify as a man'

WillIEverBeOk · 01/03/2025 20:17

I do not believe that male truly thought he acquired a cervix, I think he did it as a sexual fetish and was upset he wasn't accommodated.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 01/03/2025 19:07

Merrymouse · 01/03/2025 16:16

"Who is it for?

  • Healthcare professionals who care for women, trans men and non-binary people registered female at birth with menopause-associated symptoms
  • Women, trans men, and non-binary people registered female at birth with menopause-associated symptoms, their families or carers, and the public."

If they want to be specific, why on earth not simply write 'people registered female at birth'? Why the additional reference to gender?

Call me old fashioned but how about ‘women’?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 01/03/2025 18:39

Myalternate · 01/03/2025 16:05

🤔 I wonder how many men that believe they’ve (miraculously) changed sex, will be making appointments for cervical screening. 😂

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5264272-french-gynaecologist-suspended-for-refusing-to-treat-a-tw

Firstofall · 01/03/2025 18:31

@AnSolas The labs were found to be fine and performing to international standards by external review. Maybe it would have been a better decision not to outsource, and certainly the optics were such during the media frenzy, but ultimately an independent review found no issues with the labs.

Governance and communication were the issues, no disputing that, but my point was the science/medical aspect was not at fault.

Ireland was in fact testing younger women at 3 year intervals as that was best practice. Not sure which controls you mean specifically. The audits themselves were a safety mechanism. Of course they got suspended, which was the last thing that should have happened, but couldn’t afford the insurance I guess?

The scandal was that CervicalCheck had decided not to inform the women involved of their findings of fact
A huge issue was that when all this broke the general public thought that not disclosing the results meant people weren’t being treated for cancer on purpose. Some still believe that, that women died due to the withholding of information. That wasn’t true of course but the fundamental misunderstanding fuelled by negligent, frenzied reporting naturally sparked outrage.

I don’t agree Cervical Check has an anti-woman bias, though it’s true their literature tried taking out the word woman for a while too. We used to call it ‘political correctness gone mad’ in the old days. Anyway, they were told, and they put woman back in. I’d be more concerned that they now communicate that screening helps but is not infallible.

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 01/03/2025 18:09

The trans women I know are feminists and care about women’s rights

The right to single-sex toilets, changing rooms, sports, hospital wards? The right to receive intimate care from a female health worker?