Puberty Blockers Trial

Perhaps that's the issue the Tavi faced with its "lost" dataset! All makes sense now.

There is a practical problem in doing RCTs, in that patients don't cooperate with them if they are randomised to the group that isn't given meds.

They already have been. There are tens of thousands of children who have already been put on puberty blockers around the world before this trial has even come close to being feasible. Mass experimentation on a scale never seen on children.

NHS puberty blockers trial would turn children into guinea pigs

Well that's a side effect I wasn't expecting 😂😂😂

Archive of Times piece:

archive.is/zRGBN

Agreed. It's hard to see how an ethics committee would agree to experimenting with drugs that are likely to negatively impact on the body, brain and future fertility of children. BUT we know that the NHS is the biggest source of transactivism in the work place so safeguarding children from harm may come a poor second if those on the committee prioritise sex change over child welfare

Is the whole point of proprosing a trial to show that it would actually be impossible to carry out ethically?

Times leader article today, calling for the trial to be stopped.

“The notion that an ethical trial should be undertaken to establish the possible downsides of chemically sterilising children is as macabre as it is irrational. That research could be conducted over a long enough time-scale to establish informative results, while remaining experimentally well-controlled, is just as dubious.”

NHS puberty blockers trial would turn children into guinea pigs

https://www.thetimes.com/article/4f30b1ee-9519-41b6-a00c-89c16810af64?shareToken=feb8cd09ecef6cf0b66f190ac2d8552f

There are huge problems with this.

Firstly, there is no definition of general dysphoria which doesn't rely heavily on gender stereotypes. So they are medicalising something which isn't a medical problem at all, although might be very distressing for some children to the extent of being a mental health condition. How can it be ethical to experiment on children with a mental health condition using drugs which are known to have serious negative effects on their physical health and for which there is no evidence of benefits for their mental health?

Secondly, the treatment requires children to give informed consent to treatment which will affect their future fertility and sexual function as adults. This is impossible. Informed consent requires them to have an adult understanding of those things, which they can only have once they are sexually mature adults, but they have to give consent while they are still sexually immature children.

Is there a practical problem with this whole thing? The issue is so polarised. There must be a significant section of the medical profession who don't want any part of a trial in giving children drugs that have known harms and no evidence of benefits. And a significant section of those who do who aren't to be trusted to do so impartially as they're politically invested in blockers as a treatment.

What the actual hell.

God this is so bloody unneccessary, a waste of money and is going to cause more problems than it actually solves. Firstly, why couldn't they track the pp they've ALREADY given pbs to? Secondly, there is no scientifically accepted definition of
' gender dysphoria', so how can they choose the young pp who allegedly have this condition?

they'd be better off putting the resources into why do so many young pp believe that they're in the ' wrong' body, what is influencing them? It's also going to cause actual physical and psychological harm, which, in years to come, the NHS will probably be sued for.

Stupidity upon utter stupidity. Enraging, and these poor children whose lives will be ruined by this idiocy. Makes me so angry!

Fair point - I should have said "mentally vulnerable".

It's also a sign that some very bad people are powerful enough to dictate how we mistreat mentally unwell children.

Not necessarily mentally unwell.

Transgenderism pathologises a perfectly normal response. Puberty can be miserable and confusing. Wanting escape, and to feel untouchable, are rational responses to sexual abuse. Social confusion and wanting to find somewhere you feel you fit are rational responses for an autistic person.

I don't think we should be assuming that a two year time limit is designed to demonstrate happiness, TBH. Yes, we absolutely need longitudinal studies so that we have evidence of what happens 10, 20, 30 years post treatment. But the short term negative effects of gnrh analogues are pretty unpleasant. It requires a regular deep muscle injection which is painful enough as an adult, never mind as a child. Headaches, joint pain, bone pain, insomnia, hair loss, night sweats. The first time I was put on them, when my hormone levels tanked (which took about 3 weeks), I spent several hours hiding under the duvet because I could see teeth climbing out of the walls. They make you feel absolutely rubbish. So I'm not convinced that a child who is on them will say they feel happy if regularly assessed over a two year period.

If they can prove negative effects in a two year study, that gives a much quicker pathway to banning them for this cohort in all circumstances. What does worry me is that children will continue to be told that it doesn't matter how they feel on these drugs because as soon as they take cross sex hormones they'll feel better. Which begs the question, I suppose, of whether or not children (and parents) consented to cross sex hormones in an attempt to escape the misery of gnrh analogues.

They would also need a control group who were given a placebo to compare with the group given gnrh analogues, because it's likely that children who have been groomed online to believe that this medical pathway will solve all their problems will see some uplift in mood, at least at the beginning, due to the simple fact that they've started. I also wonder (just as an aside) what impact it would have if children and parents were told that they were not allowed to post about any of their treatment online.

Where have the former Tavistock patients gone? I get that the Tavi didn't bother collecting or keeping data, or they've hidden or lost the data - I can only conclude because it didn't give the "correct" answers, or that they just didn't care. But the actual people should still be around - could they be linked back to their patient records, if they came forward?

Is this an issue with giving people new NHS numbers and lots of name changes?

First I'd like to see an enormous study into what puberty actually does to the brain, intellect, emotions, abilities etc. Once they understand those things fully they can understand what deviations blockers produce. Otherwise it's just all so superficial.

I feel as if volunteering your child for this trial should in itself be a safeguarding referral.

You get a sex! You get a sex! Everyone gets a sex!

Genderists.

Who on earth is going to want to volunteer to allow their children to take drugs that are currently banned over safety concerns and lack of evidence?

The researchers

Lead investigator(s):
Professor Emily Simonofff_
Joint Lead Applicant:
Dr Michael Absoudd_
Co-investigators:
Dr Julie Aldersonn, Dr Neelo Aslamm, Honorary Professor Indraneel Banerjeee, Dr Julian Baudinett, Dr Jo Begentt, Professor Bryony Beresfordd, Dr Hannah Connelll, Professor Richard Emsleyy, Dr Harriet Gunnn, Professor Alice Jones Bartolii, Professor Grainne McAlonann, Dr Lindsay Neill, Professor Jonathan O'Muircheartaighh, Honorary Professor Ingram Wrightt

I'm sad to feel so cynical, but I agree with you (and @AlisonDonut earlier). The timescale seems deliberately calculated to demonstrate that distressed confused children who have been told lies about how bodies work and how the world is supposed to affirm their whims, are "happier" when surprise surprise, puberty blockers block their puberty for a couple of years.

BUT THEN WHAT? Eh? Eh?

TRSOH will do their usual See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak Only The Catechisms act.

If the outcome you're measuring is short-term hedonism then you can make all sorts of harmful interventions look good on paper. How about a clinical trial of the benefits of heroin addiction?

https://www.hra.nhs.uk/about-us/committees-and-services/res-and-recs/research-ethics-committees-overview/

One of these committees?