Transman tries to join female and non-binary space

I see this person as a victim.

Its pretty clear from the data that this movement is hoovering up young people with quite serious mental health issues and selling them a snake-oil solution of transitioning.

Frankie is ND and has likely spent her whole life feeling ' different' and not belonging. The trans movement will have told her what the reason and solution to that is, and showered her with acceptance during her journey.

Now she has done it, it has not solved her problems but has only increased her social isolation and difference from other people.

I feel really sorry for her. She was sold a lie. And her life will forever be harder for it physically and socially. I'm angry with the health professionals who failed to protect her, not with her.

My experience is that the ' Female and non-binary' groups do want to be single sex. They add non-binary so as not to exclude females who say they are non-binary. They don't really want non-binary males to attend.

'Women's' groups that are happy for males to attend will advertise as ' open to anyone who identifies as a woman' (which would obvs exclude Frankie).

Sounds like Frankie is also ND, which means the mind-reading of the group would have been challenging, and the going up and asking would have been too

Yes, Frankie may have assumed everyone knew why she was there, and that she was non-binary, AFAB. Because she herself knew that, so they must know it too.

Trans ideology really fails young people by suggesting that normal human interaction (finding it a bit awkward joining a new group is normal and if you want to join you have to adult up and introduce yourself) is exclusion / transphobia / hate. It also suggests that having main character syndrome is reasonable when it's not. It's encouraging mental unhealthiness but at the same time other people have clocked on to the fact that acting normally can have you branded a bigot / get you sacked by pronoun people and you can't ever win with their demands* so it's not unreasonable to want to avoid that.

I wouldn't want someone who took to tiktok and complained and threw around accusations and insults of 'exclusion' etc because they didn't have the guts to introduce themselves as part of any group I'd want to stay in honestly. I haven't got time for walking on eggshells around a stranger.

• E.g. in the Sandie Peggie case where both looking at Upton AND avoiding looking at him were both apparently bigoted. Can't win / walking on eggshells / coercive control.

This is a fantastic point.

And yes, of course a transman, being a woman, should be welcome in any women-only group. Or in a non-binary (ie mixed sex) group.

But claiming a group can be single sex and mixed sex at the same time is idiotic.

I'd welcome the female 'transman' into a women's space and I don't see why male 'Transwomen' aren't welcome in male spaces, given they are biological males. Toxic masculinity I'd imagine is responsible for much of these problems for both sexes.

So exactly as binary as the rest of us but wanting to be a bit pretendy.

Looking as though you want to be the centre of attention is not the best way to make friends with a new group.

I think it's more complicated than that. The group I've been to that had the most TIFs was a group of care-leaving girls. Huge number of hyper-sexualised-dressed and a huge number of TIF/NB. For broadly the same reason, I assume; trauma. Identifying out of trauma because of how your female body has been treated is common. And therefore that feeling that everyone else should know and accommodate you. It is 'narcissistic' in a trauma-impacted way.

Sounds like Frankie is also ND, which means the mind-reading of the group would have been challenging, and the going up and asking would have been too.

Girls have been badly served by this idea that you can identify out of femalehood. You can't, and it removes your tribe. It's very isolating.

Most feminists would prefer a world where gay and / or autistic women didn't feel the need to risk their physical and mental health to approximate the appearance of men.

Sadly we live in a world where gender stereotypes rule. This is precisely the opposite of what feminists have been fighting for so I'm not sure feminists need scolding for the awkward situations that arise when transmen need the protection of female spaces but have chosen to look male.

The wonderful Keira Bell has spoken about how she still sometimes uses male facilities as she's aware her appearance can cause concern. It does take a degree of self awareness to work out if you genuinely pass or not. (Obviously this is only relevant for transmen and Keira is accepting a risk rather than upsetting women. If a transwoman believes they pass it's irrelevant. By using the opposite sex facilities they're forcing women to accept the risk, not themselves.).

Essentially someone who is genetically female but prefers to present as androgynous and/or uses they/them pronouns.

so someone who might presents as masc* but by being in female non binary space is letting other women know it is still a safe space and they have the same under carriage

There seems to be a bit of proliferation of these threads. Regardless of whether she has a beard she is female so should be in the female category. It's almost like the trans movement is trying to threaten don't argue transwomen shouldn't be included or you'll have to have transmen using the facilities.

I think this happens a lot.

Yes this.

One of the factors of the trans movement is that there seems to be an assumption that everyone is automatically mates, taking all the effort out of it.

Surely you can't be non-binary if you are a trans-person.
Pick a fucking lane.

@niadainud

Urgh what happened? Did you wait for him to come out?

I'm very sorry to hear that happened to you.

Whether I have experienced that or not, whether I am a DV survivor, a rape survivor, any of the myriad of abuses suffered by women from men survivor I shouldn’t ever be in a position in MY space with a male who has no right to be there. (TM are women and have every right to be in that space).

I completely agree with this.

Ironically, I went into the wrong toilets a few months ago because I was following someone who was clearly male down the stairs in a restaurant. When he turned to go into one set of toilets I automatically went in the other door without checking - then realised what had happened. It was obviously intentional on his part as he didn't immediately turn round and come out of the ladies'.

Maybe she's coming to an age when she starts realising the importance of female friendships. How it's different from having male friends.

Yeah, it's absolutely a deliberate attempt to stir up trouble for social media.

"Those mean nasty TERFs say trans women are men and trans men are women but they won't let me join their women's group."

(Even though they probably would have done if you'd introduced yourself and said, "Hi, I'm a trans man, hope you don't mind me joining.")

I suspect a lot of Frankie's discomfort and inability to go up and start chatting to people when she joined the group, comes from the fact that she knows she does not really belong at this group.. She's gone through huge health sacrifices to #become a man', realised other men don't want to be her friends and is now trying to get back into women's groups to make female friends.

Being a TW or TM is actually buying into a binary.

She is now trying to reject that to fit in with women's groups again. By trying to join she's quite publicly admitting she has made a mistake that she regrets in becoming a transman, even if she can't quite articulate that yet.

Might be time for you to read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker. Feeling frightened in situations where you might be vulnerable is a useful trait to have, not a foolish one.

@niadainud I understand it can be difficult to put yourself in someone else’s shoes especially if you haven’t had to deal with the things that they have. I am not a delicate flower, I am well able to stand up to men in “normal social interactions”. Finding a man in a women only toilet is not a normal place for men to be, the absolute shock of walking out of a cubicle to confront one can take you back to a place of great danger and real trauma. I was sexually assaulted as an 11 year old girl in a unisex swimming changing room I would be terrified to be confronted in this way and I shouldn’t have to. Whether I have experienced that or not, whether I am a DV survivor, a rape survivor, any of the myriad of abuses suffered by women from men survivor I shouldn’t ever be in a position in MY space with a male who has no right to be there. (TM are women and have every right to be in that space).

If you make yourself look like you don’t fit in with the group you can’t complain when the group doesn’t realise you are there to fit in with them.

it’s like a silent goth turning up to a townie event on the basis that they used to be a townie before they died their hair black and started wearing all the make up.

If you say something they might invite you to join them (especially if someone there remembers you from before) but if you stay at the edge looking moody they definitely won’t.

Just finished watching the whole video, and yep, she joined to make friends and for 'safety'. She wants to be friends with women. Because she is a woman. She seems to be very lonely and feeling very battered

I've seen another video from a TIF on this, crying about how lonely she now was and how she misses female friendships.

Its really sad.

Ironically, probably one of the most welcoming places these TIF could go would be a GC feminist group - because we would accept them as female and embrace that side of them. It's certainly seeming that their own 'queer' circles are not accommodating them. I guess the new recruits are more exciting than those who have actually transitioned and are done.

I think it must be harder for TIF than TIM. TIMs rarely pass and so its easier to 'place' them and to know how to interact with them. TIFs often do pass physically but can never really pass as males socially, as they aren't males.