Ireland

SionnachRuadh
The way it usually works in the north is that the Belfast Telegraph, being a pretty good barometer of the professional classes, starts saying "it's [the current year], we have to introduce [progressive policy] in NI or the Brits will think we're backward".

But surely most of the readership of the Belfast Telegraph are Brits, and rather keen to stay that way??

I've long thought that Dave Cullinane was one of the more sensible people in SF. Sadly he is yet to grow a backbone.

I am wondering why my post is still hidden 18 hours after I posted it. It was just a link to an article about David Cullinane, SF health spokesman, doing a U turn following backlash from T and I P*ide. I am wondering which word triggered an automatic censoring.
Different link in this post but same story
https://x.com/CMacCoille/status/1912918424562327711?t=kplJBAVty7TTsh8je42dTw&s=19

I never thought I'd be grateful for the existence of the DUP...

Indeed I even find myself liking some of Beattie’s tweets. I’m inclined to think an issue that cuts across sectarian lines is a good thing.

The way it usually works in the north is that the Belfast Telegraph, being a pretty good barometer of the professional classes, starts saying "it's [the current year], we have to introduce [progressive policy] in NI or the Brits will think we're backward". This is followed up by the unions and the NGO sector affirming that it's the current year and not a previous year, followed by SF, SDLP, Alliance and the urban wing of the UUP.

Seems to me a bloody silly way to argue for social change, even the ones I agree with, but there you go.

The political debate is of course different in the north because the DUP exists. IME the same gap exists between the supporters of the other parties and their TWAW politicians, but the politicians can't move because they define themselves against the DUP.

I never thought I'd be grateful for the existence of the DUP...

But the UK Supreme Court has given a good opportunity to reverse ferret, for those who want to take it.

It all (across Europe, including the UK, not just Ireland) followed logically, step by step, from the Lydia Foy debates.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

SionnachRuadh My theory is that a lot of the momentum behind self-ID was getting ahead of the Brits, but assuming they'd end up in the same place. Proving you can do things differently will make the argument interesting.

Having read the parliamentary debates and committee minutes discussing the Gender Recognition Bill in the Dáil, I don't think 'getting ahead of the Brits' played much part in the discussions. 'The Brits' were seen as pretty out-there at the time with their liberal abortion laws and gay rights..

A lot of it seemed to be fuelled by a 'genuine' belief that transgender people were a marginalised minority like gay people used to be, and were entitled to the same legal rights. 'Genuine', but based on an uncritical acceptance of everything that TENI [Transgender Equality Network Ireland] were telling them - it's astonishing to read the way TENI was deferred to by not just the politicos but also the medical and educational establishment.

This is pure Denton's-in-action. DENTON’S DOCUMENT – THE GENDER COLLECTION for anyone unfamiliar with it].
Like a lot of things in social history, I think it was a case of a moment when a number of things came together: the Irish establishment was feeling very liberal, the Denton's plan of action existed, and a trans rights group was in position to deploy the Denton's plan.

I think it was all superficial, I don't think the grassroots of all the enthusiastically TWAW parties, or The Plain People of Ireland, ever truly believed that men can become women, and that a GRC proves that a man is now actually a woman.

edited to acknowledge and agree with Sionnach's last post.

I think it has to have an impact, at least in legal circles. Because if British law is a mess then I don't think it's much of a stretch to think Irish law could be pretty messy as well.

Usual disclaimer, IANAL and my long ago legal training was in the English system, but gender self-ID being sneaked in as an adjunct to same sex marriage with very little scrutiny is a red flag to me.

I know it's an Irish (and Scottish and Welsh) thing to define ourselves against England, but the big neighbour has to have an influence. My theory is that a lot of the momentum behind self-ID was getting ahead of the Brits,

Yes, and surely you could say the same to a large extent about Sturgeon and the SNP?

But do you think the UK SC ruling will have much impact in Ireland?

In 2015 Zappone could have reasonably assumed that MDH would stick to his promise not to run in 2018, and have misinterpreted the rural vote in favour of equal marriage as an endorsement of a package of 'progressive' values, rather than as a way to sort out inheritance rights and access to grandchildren.

I agree she has written herself out of the running over the last decade.

Totally agree with that take @SionnachRuadh. Official Ireland and Scotland are both in headlong flight from organised religion - with good reason in fairness. But it often takes the form if kneejeek opposition to whatever the church / kirk wants. Therefore Self ID must be a good thing. And how sweet it is to be more liberal than the English. A veritable poster boy for the new Europe.
Well @DeanElderberry Zappone won't get a sniff of the Áras methinks. She has pissed off too many people. Sadly I think Cokehead McRapeface is more likely to win. Catherine Connolly would be my choice. But having said that I've no idea where she is on this issue. There again it is a larger ceremonial job so the trick is not to elect an actual psychopath?

Katherine Zappone working hard to make a name for herself ahead of a presidential bid. Not understanding Ireland (or anything else).

Sometimes when I look at my family history (which is mostly northern to be fair) I feel like Gary Sinise in Forrest Gump saying every generation of his ancestors fought and died in an American war. Mine ended up in every corner of the world where the British Empire sent them.

I know it's an Irish (and Scottish and Welsh) thing to define ourselves against England, but the big neighbour has to have an influence. My theory is that a lot of the momentum behind self-ID was getting ahead of the Brits, but assuming they'd end up in the same place. Proving you can do things differently will make the argument interesting.

It's a story the Brits told about is too. Formerly about 25'% of the British Army consisted of Irish men. Economic conscription I think it is called. Hence the myth of ' the fighting Irish ' celebrated by Kipling and other writers. Whereas really we are very easy going and placid. Witness Greek protesters chanting ' we are not the Irish!' when the IMF / EU imposed spending cuts on them.
However , our laws are essentially the same as English laws and I think this ruling could perhaps be used as a precedent or at least as a legal argument to try and change our daft Self ID and Equality Act?

I know it's an Irish stereotype that we're a rebellious, cantankerous people, but that's a story we tell to flatter ourselves. Irish conformism runs as deep as it does in any other small country.

I think lots of people in Ireland are pretending to be wokelords the same way as their parents or grandparents pretended to be conservative Catholics, until a tipping point was reached and then they pretended they'd never believed in any of that stuff.

Anyone else wondering when (if ever) we are going to have our own reckoning like the one that is happening in the UK?

I heard the news reports on Wednesday about the judgement on the radio in work - of course there was only a soundbite from a TW doing sad voice about how terrible this is… nothing from women’s groups.

It feels like we are so far behind the UK; our Equality Act is nonsense, Self ID is already in place.

It also seems like people don’t want to rock the boat here, I have talked about it in real life and most people agree it’s bullshit, but if you follow mainstream media they don’t report on stuff, so it goes under the radar.

..or even 'Very useful comma thanks'

Thanks so much Nebulousbiologist for your post about how the Irish media has dealt with trans issues, it's very interesting and detailed. Very useful thanks!

The issue can of course be discussed at any time. Except during Pride month, obviously. Or Trans History month. Or an unreasonably short time (less than 2, maybe 3, months) before or after either of those months. Or too close to trans remembrance.day, or trans day of visibility, or asexual awareness week, or IDAHOBIT, or ...

But any other time.

For the first time ever, Helen Joyce, who is an Irish best selling author, is interviewed by an Irish newspaper.
https://www.independent.ie/life/family/family-features/irish-activist-helen-joyce-im-sure-i-messed-up-sometimes-but-no-man-saying-the-things-that-i-say-will-be-called-unkind/a1816140309.html

The Sunday Independent has at least being willing to discuss the issues associated with GI.
Mark Tighe has been strong on reporting on issues with healthcare. Eilis O'Hanlon has also discussed it on a number of occasions in her opinion column.
The editor of the Sunday Independent said that they were flooded with an exceptional amount of letters after one of Eilis's columns a few years ago indicating that this is a lot more important to people, than those who dismiss it as culture wars would have you believe
www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/readers-have-their-say-on-eilis-ohanlons-transgender-comment-piece/41789949.html

The IT has been terrified entering the debate after receiving backlash from Trinity student union when they dipped their toe in the water some years ago around the Conversion therapy ban.
https://universitytimes.ie/2022/04/usi-votes-to-boycott-the-irish-times-over-conversion-therapy-op-ed/

RTE ran a Prime Time special in 2019 where Stella O'Malley spoke on the issues, since validated by the Cass Report, but since they seem to be more afraid of causing offence than openly discussing issues that might be perceived as being too right wing.
Liveline ran a 3 day discussion on the issue in 2022, again an indication of the importance of the debate for so many who have been unable to speak out on this.
But backlash from Dublin Pride and finger wagging from the Government ensured that they won't be doing that again
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0615/1304966-rte-dublin-pride/

Public service broadcasting during the holy month of Pride was akin to blasphemy to the Oireachtas committee
"The Committee wishes to emphasis the importance of such an engagement occurring during Pride month, and in advance of Dublin Pride on 25th June 2022; it also wishes to afford RTÉ the opportunity to visibly stand in solidarity with the LGBTQIA+ community and provide an update to the Committee on RTÉ's vision and strategy for diversity and inclusion as a national broadcaster"

RTE haven't touched the issue since.

I don't know, NImumconfused- I doubt it, I don't think it would be appropriate in this case.
But as InpraiseofWomenhelpingWomen says, these two doctors have been very brave over a long period of time, and if I find out about a way to support them, I'll post it here.

Do we know if they have backing, or if there's a crowdfunder type set up?

I’m very impressed with these two doctors, Dr. Paul Moran and Dr. Donal O’Shea, taking this case. They have been brave and courageous trying to protect children over many years, not without personal cost. I have no idea how Dr. Paul Moran keeps going. The HSE have fought him hard using shocking tactics. He has risked his job, career and livelihood. Taking on a legal case in Ireland is a huge financial undertaking. Doctors in Ireland are well paid, but a legal case in Ireland could easily swallow up their home and savings. They are very courageous for doing this.

Great news indeed. Thanks for sharing.

I would have been very surprised if Ireland had gone a different route to the uk here. Just shows the huge significance of Cass.