Germany: Not voting for women's rights...

@ForestAtTheSea interesting

How do you feel about Merz' comments on the US?

On one hand I suppose it's good the seriousness of needing increase in defence spending is good?

Oth we kind of do need US, the UK is incredibly tied to them on security

What's the mood like there on Ukraine, US etc?

When they talk about German identity, this is what they mean:

haha, I thought BSW would be a useful addition, especially regarding Self-ID. They were really close, probably only a couple thousand votes short. Oh well. At least now there are at least two options for a coalition.

I don't agree with the impression that the AfD are more harmless than it seems, and I think, too, Alice Weidel is helpful for the argumentation: "oh look, a woman, a lesbian and with a partner from a different country". But there is plenty wrong with the AfD.
The fact that Weidel lives in Switzerland was probably not so good, either.

@EasternStandard

Yes, there are plenty of US troops in Germany, which wasn't "only" favour to Germany, but they were stationed there during Cold War times, when the opponenent - Russian puppet state (though independent) Eastern Germany (GDR) was nearby. It was in the USA's interests to be close by.
There were troops of other countries, like Belgium, France and UK, in Germany, too, but I think they mostly moved away nowadays.

The NATO headquarter is in Brussels, and Allied Joint Force Command is headaquartered in Brunssum, The Netherlands.

When Nancy Pelosi broke her hip on a trip to Luxembourg recently, she was treated at the military hospital belonging to the US troops in Germany.

The location in Germany is also often a stopover for US troops who are deployed to other war zones. It is a very convenient location to them. And the military hospitals care for wounded American soldiers in action for example in the Middle East.

The great disintegration as is being touted would be a disadvantage to the USA, too.

She certainly didn't come across well during the Kanzler debate - none of them did really but she had even less caliber to lead than the others.

For me there was no clear cut vote winner, I did vote, but not happily, more tactically.

The reporting on Merz is strong on statements on the US and the interventions they feel happened plus wanting independence from them

I didn't realise US troops were in Germany so that's an issue too

And then the issue of troops to Ukraine, relying on the US and whether that will be supported by Germany

I largely agree with you @Angryexpat and I loathe the AFD. Banning the party would be counterproductive and undemocratic.

You said "I also struggle to see Alice Weidel, who is, by all accounts, an accomplished woman, as a would-be fascist dictator." It pains me to say it, but I think the reason Weidel is in this position is because she's a woman - the deeply sexist AFD believes it softens their image. If she's accomplished, I fail to see it. She was woeful in the TV debates, completely out of her depth, a political featherweight, short on detail and not across her brief. Chanting from the same script over and over. Typical of far right characters.

It's frightening that the AFD did so well but I hang on to the fact that nearly 80% of those who voted, on a very high turnout, didn't vote for them.

BSW is out!

No worries. Yes, it’s true that there is right-wing extremism in Germany, more than in the UK. Perhaps the AfD will expel such elements and ‘clean up’, a bit like Marine Le Pen in France.

Whether Musk likes the AfD is neither here nor there, it’s the 19.5% of the voters that matter. Likewise, I don’t think the Reichsbuerger are a credible threat, they seem few in number, deluded and disorganised.

What I think is more dangerous, actually, is when those who profess to protect democracy lose their moral compass and democratic values. Quite a few AfD politicians have been physically assaulted; businesses run by AfD members have been boycotted; these are not the means of democratic debate. That’s why I think it’s actually unhelpful when the taz changes the AfD colour to brown. It’s childish, lowers the tone and just provides more fuel for a victim mentality.

@Angryexpat forgot to tag the latest reply

I don't see the AfD in isolation; I see them in the context of several right-wing movements, some of which are illegal, some barely scratching legality, some preparing overthrow of the Government, the movement of the "Reichsbürger" and so on. Some of the fringe groups do the things the party officially does not want to do.
An example from a few years ago, where an AfD politican was in a conspiracy with more extreme people:
www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/ndr-wdr/razzia-reichsbuerger-staatsstreich-geplant-101.html

There were also groups invited by AfD parliamentarians in Berlin who did some reconaissance of the parliament building, to copy the US's January 6th.
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bgh-reichsbuerger-100.html

Amongst all the other things, I would not put it past them to criminalize abortion in a much stricter way, in line with the conspiracy theories about replacement.

As you saw from Musk's tweets, the AfD is his favourite party, and check how his government chainsaw is turning out currently.

Anyone looking for final results without forecasts, as on the media pages, this is the official site of the "Bundeswahlleiterin"; the person ultimately responsible for the elections - a government position.

https://www.bundeswahlleiterin.de/bundestagswahlen/2025/ergebnisse/bund-99.html

The mainpage states:
"Die Auszählung der Stimmen beginnt nach Ende der Wahlhandlung um 18:00 Uhr. Veröffentlicht werden die Ergebnisse vollständig ausgezählter Wahlkreise sowie die kumulierten Ergebnisse auf Bundes- und Landesebene. Die Bundeswahlleiterin veröffentlicht keine Prognosen und hochgerechneten Ergebnisse.
Bis zur vollständigen Auszählung können die Ergebnisse im Bundesgebiet und in den Ländern erheblich abweichen.
Voraussichtlich in den frühen Morgenstunden des 24. Februars 2025 wird die Bundeswahlleiterin das vorläufige Wahlergebnis bekannt geben und die vorläufige Sitzverteilung und die vorläufig Gewählten veröffentlichen."

=> These are the counted votes, no forecasts. Only districts which have concluded counting are listed, and the cumulative results on country and national levels. The final result is expected for early monday morning.

If the extremist elements have completely taken over, why does the party programme look like it does?

E.g. on national identity they say: ‘we are open to the world but we want to retain our German identity’. I struggle to see how that is an extremist statement. Could easily be endorsed by a middle-of-the-road CDU voter.

But I don’t want to derail the thread, keen to see what the coalition negotiations will look like.

Though I might be in a minority here, I don’t think it’s either possible or even a good idea to ban the AfD. First, the Verfassungsschutz has said that there are extremist elements in the party, not that the party itself is extremist, which is an important qualifier. Second, how can you realistically ban a party that captures 19% of the vote share? How is this democratic?

I also struggle to see Alice Weidel, who is, by all accounts, an accomplished woman, as a would-be fascist dictator.

If you actually bother to read the programme - which I have done and which is why I’m not voting for them - the positions they embrace are libertarian-conservative with some odd illiberal elements, but not fascist. Not if you actually have a meaningful definition of fascism that includes a particular way to order economy and society, a charismatic leader and willingness to use political violence and to expand the country’s territory by conquest.

In my area the CDU is very strong, too, and there seems to have been a movement from SPD and Liberals to the AfD.
I think what fuelled it were not the least Social Democrat's and Green's "luxury beliefs" type of politics, not so much migration, but a neglect of people with lower incomes. I understand that the green transition is necessary in the long run, especially with a look to energy security, but the messaging often was too much talking down from a great height. There are several ways to reach that goal.

Another aspect is fixing the divergence between education and skills of people versus employer standards. It is very necessary to ensure people can keep learning. You can't leave a substantial amount of people behind because they don't have the skills you need and leave them unemployed. Much more effort should be made so that people can finish or upgrade their school education and learn skills for new jobs.
Currently it's also somewhat awkward for adults to return to an "Ausbildung" / apprenticeship compared to recent school graduates because they stand out so much. Instead it should be supported.

I just checked my Landkreis and the CSU gets results like they used to decades ago, well over 50% in some places. AfD got just under 14% in my village. Only Stadt Wuerzburg has CSU in the 30s and it's mainly benefitting the Greens but it's a university town with a lot of students.

That is what I don't get, either. The relevant authorities have pandered to the AfD for far too long.
And I concur with your statement, if that had been a party on the left, there would have been a "Parteiverbotsverfahren" by now.

@Maerchentante

I haven't understood to this day why they don't forbid the AfD. Several relevant agencies have confirmed they are anti-democratic, extremist and undermining the state. This is not a whim of cancelling the opposition. Our laws, which btw were created with the help of the USA after WWII to avoid a repetion of what they just fought the war over, are meant to protect our state and certain rights.

It's not cancelling "free speech" to keep right-wing extremists away from our institutions. Free speech has limits if you want to resurrect the third Reich.

If that was a left-wing party, they'd have done it already.

Yes, I would not want to be in charge of liasing with other parties.

In my hometown, the AfD has a share of over 33%, I could scream. Especially today. 80 years ago today, my hometown was obliterated in an air raid, consequence of WW2 and the Nazi regime. Now over 33% voted for fascist. How can anyone be so effing stupid???

That will be hellish Koalitionsverhandlungen.

Not the OP but from checking election programs, CDU, BSW (and AfD) said they would repeal Self-ID. Let's see whether BSW make it over the 5% minimum. If there is a CDU/SPD coalition, I'm not sure they can get it done.

As unfortunately that's not the only problem in Germany right now, I hope Merz won't sell us out like Musk. We can probably expect some rollback with regard to environmental regulations, also with regards to new buildings. While some regulations are very detailed, compared to our neighbour countries, others will come to bite them. Less insulation and renewables will mean higher energy costs and noise problems, for example.

Also the same discussion as in the UK is happening, with regards of building on green land or higher density in unused city spaces - with the resulting stress on social and technical infrastructure.

In fact we have a lot of potential building sites in some shrinking cities - such as in Eastern Germany and some rural areas, which wasn't green land before. But that's not the areas people are moving to. This is a huge problem I'd like to se addressed better, without destroying green fields.

Another topic with regard to women's rights is how the Conservatives can square their values with providing more places in preschools / kindergarden and more help to families, so that both parents can work.

Sounds like it went as expected

How do you feel about the results op?