Pronouns - I’ve peaked 🥺

Why are YOU so obsessed with this?

What article are you referring to? There are lots of links now on this thread. Please be specific.

Why are you so obsessed with this?

In the article linked, I thought the picture of the cis nurse must be the trans woman, before reading the caption -- thus disproving the oft-stated suggestion that we can always tell who is male and who is female. We cannot.

Wrong thread I have reported

Look up 5ARD. Your AIS theory don't stand up to scrutiny.

And maybe read the leaked endrocrinologist report linked up thread. That if it was false, would have been removed from the internet by now, and has not.

I see. If you were in Khelif's position, you would not concede that you were male, even though that has been shown through testing to be true.

And you then post a question about why people question Khelif's respect for female people? Ok.

It's literally not look up AIS but fine.

Being a male person is objectively verifiable and doesn't rely on someone's concession or agreement.

I don't think his interaction with male coaches and so on bears any of this out.

Well, exactly. I wouldn't.

I'll save my 'poor thing' sympathies for the women who had to either be punched by a male (whether that person admits the truth or not) or cede the match, as will most posters on a feminism board.

Why would Khelif 'concede' this when to compete in the Olympics there was no need to?

Again, this is a great example of how language produces misleading information to be replicated throughout the world.

Because she doesn't concede that she's a "male person".

This is purely your own assumptions here.

A male person, who knew that they were male since 2023, would understand that their physical power in the ring was a significant risk to female people. There were already testimony that Khelif would have understood this due to coaches decisions in a Spanish coaching camp where they decided it was unsafe to the women there to bout with Khelif. Not because of 'skill and talent'.

So, how can it be that a male person respects a female athlete by deliberately putting them in danger of serious injury?

And by deliberately, I mean, they chose to compete in the Olympics knowing the medical information that they did. They saw an opportunity and they took it. They were not the only one to do this, but it was indeed a very deliberate decision on Khelif and Lin's parts.

Not sure how you can call that respecting female people. I look forward to reading how though.

Why do you think Imane Khelif doesn't respect women? Poor thing, I think nobody has properly considered how it must feel for her and her family coming from the country and society she comes from. She was raised as a girl and as far as they are concerned, she is a woman, so all this outrage must be so painful for her and her family, they will all be mortified.

Re MNHQs stance on pronouns, while afaik the guidelines are unchanged, the way in which they're applied is no longer as draconian as it used to be. I think there was a shift in the wake of the Forstater ruling. I'd be fairly sure you'd be asking for a deletion if you persistently used a name or pronoun which another poster had rejected in a similar way I could object to someone calling me 'cis', which would be congruent with that ruling I believe.

Also, language based.

Many of the problems with gender theories/ideology are caused by language - often when people are trying to reverse engineer reality by changing the words used to describe it.

This is a great example though of where inaccurate language allows harm to female people. And I am not blaming koolkat here, because it actually takes having this discussion on this site and twitter to sort through the misinformation.

It really did start back in the 90s when activists for male people with DSDs campaigned successfully to the OIC to allow them to compete based not on science, but on manipulatively using human rights. And then the media has been forced to use unclear and false language.

The media keep perpetuating this myth of 'just a woman with naturally high testosterone'. And they do it for numerous reasons, and only some to be kind to the person they are discussing.

Once Semenya's 5ARD proof had to be published, those media outlets still have to use that language. But other people don't have to, and society doesn't have to believe it. Caster Semenya is a male athlete with a DSD that only male people have.

Khelif's medical report has been leaked with the same DSD and there has been nothing said by Khelif's team except to say 'we will be suing'.

Genuinely though, how would any female person produce testosterone levels that would need to be reduced to play sport without it being a very serious health issue that would likely mean they would not be competing in sport?

What conditions do you think produce that level of testosterone that leaves a female person with (7.7–29.4 nmol/L) of testosterone that doesn't require a very serious medical treatement?

Genuinely, this is not a 'hormone imbalance', although I completely understand people who post that it is. Because that is the terminology used in the media.

It is worth remembering that the only 'evidence' that Khelif is female is an F marker on their passport. That is it. There is zero actual biological evidence.

And it is very easy to understand how a male with a DSD would end up with this marker.

There are no female DSDs that would align with Khelif's physicality.

I have just posted the leaked endrocrinologist information.

I would also suggest that if you still have doubts, just watch for the IBA now taking the OIC to court about this decision and the Lin decision. It is likely to be a sure way to have to have these athletes produce medical testing results that will be recorded for the world to see.

But the reality is, no female with natural testosterone production ever has to reduce their testosterone to compete in a female event.

No healthy female athlete is likely to produce a level of testosterone. We have this information from a PCOS advocate.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).

5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Plus there is this:

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus this discusses the ranges

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

plus that Hoovlet post with handy charts in the tweet

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

“Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

“Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!”

If you are using the term 'woman with high testosterone', plus check your sources and don't spread misinformation. Female people with PCOS, women, DO NOT HAVE male levels of testosterone!

We have more information if you want it. Please just ask. Many of us have had this very discussion over and over and over so we know where to find the links.

And here are the links to the leaked Endocrinologist's report:

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/11/4/the-imane-khelif-matter-resurfaces-can-we-find-in-it-somehow-our-common-humanity#:~:text=The%20obvious%20tension%20in%20the,These%20are%20matters%20of%20identity.

https://lecorrespondant.net/imane-khelif-ni-ovaires-ni-uterus-mais-des-testicules/

It says:

A June 2023 medical report found Khelif has a difference in sexual development

— it’s formally called ‘alpha-5 reductase type-2 deficiency’ — with XY chromosomes, internal testes and a “micropenis.”

A hormone test showed a “male-type testosterone level of 14.7,” the French story says, “while the female gender does not exceed the maximum level of 3.”

Thanks for sharing the information, and I understand your perspective. I don’t want to get into a back-and-forth, but I’ll take the time to look at the links and sources you provided. I still have my reservations, but I see your points, and I appreciate the opportunity to learn more. I’ll leave it at that.

I think you are misinformed or have not read the depth of information that is already known about this case. What you have posted even defies the logic of how Khelif came to be competing and why Khelif was allowed to compete.

You are making claims that are false regarding testosterone in female people.

If you support a male with a masculinising DSD to compete in the female sporting event, you are indeed supporting males in female sports.

RE: IMANE KHELIF & LIN YU-TING What the IBA said

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

This part is relevant

'On 24 March 2023, IBA disqualified athletes Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif from the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships New Delhi 2023. This disqualification was a result of their failure to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women’s competition, as set and laid out in the IBA Regulations. This decision, made after a meticulous review, was extremely important and necessary to uphold the level of fairness and utmost integrity of the competition.'

and

'This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors.'

So, the statement is really in two parts:

Not xx

Found to have physical advantages

Athletes that don't meet the 'required eligibility criteria' for the IBA's female category is quite simple. They state in their regulations, that female competitors are those who are XX.

p9 on the IBA Technical Competition Rules,

www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/20240303-IBA-Technical-Competition-Rules-v7-clean.pdf

These competitors have also been found to have competitive advantage. The only way for that to be true is if those male athletes have gone through puberty.
I also believe this statement shows that the IBA certainly also had in mind to make allowances for boxers who were male but with CAIS. Hence they have used two claims here to explain the exclusion of these male athletes. Neither of which has been directly addressed or refuted by the IOC.

The IBA also restated their position

https://www.iba.sport/news/iba-reaffirms-the-position-and-removal-of-boxers-from-all-events/

And i understand that…not going to debate either

but if Imane was female with a female DSD we would absolutely have the evidence right now.

All the evidence revealed so far indicates that Khelif is male. The lab report showing XY karyotype, a member of Khelif's own team saying that Khelif has a problem with chromosomes and hormones (and is on medication to regulate testosterone to female levels), and snippets of a leaked medical report stating that Khelif has the sex developmental disorder 5-ARD - which only applies to males.

Plus the clear difference in performance in the Olympics (winning gold in straight 5-0 matches), the head of the Spanish team reporting that Khelif had to spar with their male boxers due to strength differences with female team members, declining to pursue a case with the CAS after the IBA disqualification.

No evidence has been shown that Khelif is female other than having an "F" on identity documents. Which isn't uncommon for 5-ARD males where the underdeveloped/malformed penis may be mistaken for female external genitalia.

Why do you believe that Khelif is female?