Page 2 | Pronouns - I’ve peaked 🥺

MotherEarthisaTerf · 2025-02-11T21:59:50+00:00

I was a bloody typical “be nice” feminist. I went from respecting all pronouns, to not respecting pronouns of people who didn’t respect women (eg Imane Khelif etc etc) and occasionally using they/ them. Today I was reading a thread on Reddit re Dr Upton and it was such a world away from reading Mumsnet’s posts - where we happily call a spade a spade. Call a man a man. Reading Reddit, the she / her pronouns just made the whole situation sound much worse for Dr Upton. It automatically appeared Dr Upton was going through more of an ordeal - and that’s not from the content of the posts, which were to be expected, the tone made me feel more sympathetic due to the pronouns used. It feels much harsher but it’s MUCH clearer what the issues are when pronouns match the facts, not the niceties. However it’s something I hugely struggle with. Anyone else out there who battle with this ick?

boobleblingo · 13/02/2025 10:43

sadmillenial · 13/02/2025 10:28

If we look at the athletes competing who have been asked to take DNA tests to check for DSD there is massive overrepresentation of women of colour. I remember the calls years ago for Serena Williams to make her medical information public! The "transvestigation" of athletes can be really nasty and invasive, but there is clearly a popular public argument for fairness in female sport.
Should every female participant undergo a chromosomal and hormonal check before competing to remove racial bias from the argument?

Yes. Women athletes are strongly in favour of cheek swabs, for all.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2025 10:42

sadmillenial · 13/02/2025 10:28

If we look at the athletes competing who have been asked to take DNA tests to check for DSD there is massive overrepresentation of women of colour. I remember the calls years ago for Serena Williams to make her medical information public! The "transvestigation" of athletes can be really nasty and invasive, but there is clearly a popular public argument for fairness in female sport.
Should every female participant undergo a chromosomal and hormonal check before competing to remove racial bias from the argument?

Yes. Every female participant should undergo sex testing before competing. It is the only fair way to do this.

And I believe that is what World Athletics will be reinstating. It was the way it was done pre Atlanta games.

AnSolas · 13/02/2025 10:42

sadmillenial · 13/02/2025 10:28

If we look at the athletes competing who have been asked to take DNA tests to check for DSD there is massive overrepresentation of women of colour. I remember the calls years ago for Serena Williams to make her medical information public! The "transvestigation" of athletes can be really nasty and invasive, but there is clearly a popular public argument for fairness in female sport.
Should every female participant undergo a chromosomal and hormonal check before competing to remove racial bias from the argument?

As I understand that the Olympics and some high level sporting events did do entry medicals on women but (obviously) not men.

And at one olympics ( 70's?) a canadian ice skater visually female was found to have a DSD via what ever medical test was done ( may have been too high testosterone level) and was disqualified.

sadmillenial · 13/02/2025 10:28

If we look at the athletes competing who have been asked to take DNA tests to check for DSD there is massive overrepresentation of women of colour. I remember the calls years ago for Serena Williams to make her medical information public! The "transvestigation" of athletes can be really nasty and invasive, but there is clearly a popular public argument for fairness in female sport.
Should every female participant undergo a chromosomal and hormonal check before competing to remove racial bias from the argument?

Original poster

MotherEarthisaTerf · 13/02/2025 10:09

As a feminist, it’s always sports where I feel most sympathetic.

I believe sports and physical exercise are vital. I think everyone should be able to access it for their physical and mental health. I’m more sympathetic to trans women preferring to be in female sports clubs than I am when they want to be in female toilets, and changing rooms.

I completely understand the “otherness” of a sporting community and how men would exclude trans women physically or mentally from sports clubs.

This is the strong “third space” option I want to help support.

I totally get that the world can feel bigoted and it can make life and your preferred choices difficult. This is where the pronoun issue is most important. If women and girls can use accurate sex based pronouns - the issue becomes much clearer. Women should not have men in their sports. Women should not lose accolades to men. Men should not be physically competing in a women’s category.

If men’s sports are not kind to you - that’s a man problem. If your best option is to not play in the men’s categories, let’s help you get a third space.

If women can call it as it is - talk about trans identified men wanting to play in their teams, or combat against them, somehow it doesn’t feel like women should just “be kind” any more.

OP posts:

Helleofabore · 13/02/2025 09:43

I wonder when Occams Razor will kick in with the public’s understanding about Khelif and all those other male athletes described as ‘women with high testosterone’?

For me it was a case of ‘fool me once’ upon understanding about Semenya. But once you have read enough and understood the manipulative nature of the language limitations, I don’t think people go back to just believing.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2025 09:24

For those who are still wondering about Khelif, it turns out that the professional boxing organisations are likely to reject Khelif’s joining them as well.

It is not just the IBA, EUBC it is also now WBCouncil and WBA.

“Two of the global sanctioning bodies, the World Boxing Association and World Boxing Council, have expressed profound concerns about either Khelif or Lin being permitted to turn professional.”

https://archive.is/YV6FF

How many boxing organisations excluding these boxers will cause people to think that the language being used by media and the IOC and those supporting the boxers have created a mess which covered up the fact that at the Olympics two male boxers were punching women. And all the dismissal about the IBA being not creditable… just meaningless sparple, distraction from the truth.

While people placated themselves on ‘the IBA are corrupt and I won’t listen to them’, they supported these male boxers putting female boxers at risk. I expect they will find some other distraction from the professional bodies excluding them too. All because the media keeps using female words for Khelif.

Language is such an important tool.

KateBAnd3 · 13/02/2025 09:13

MotherEarthisaTerf · 13/02/2025 07:12

I have a family member with DSD so I’m very sympathetic.

from what I read at the time - Khelif was probably born with female appearing genitalia and likely was raised as a girl until puberty. At puberty Khelif would have started male puberty and also had a lack of female puberty - so deeper voice, facial hair, no breasts, no period.

Most people with Khelifs DSD receive medical care at that point and learn about their DSD.

Personally, I would have no problem to continue using she/her pronouns for someone who has always been raised as a girl until puberty - if they didn’t make a living using their body to beat women.

By the time of the Olympics Khelif definitely knew they were male, had testes, and had gone through a male puberty. I can almost accept that it would be difficult to let that training and passion go, once you’ve reached that pinnacle of a career - but that’s why the Administrative bodies of the sport should support the female competitors.

And I’ve no problem calling Khelif male because 1. They’re male. 2. They’re using male advantages to take medals and sex segregated places away from women. 3. He uses his male body to batter women, for sport. When he knows he’s a man.

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100% this. Any sympathy for Khalif is irradiated by the fact that he chose to continue fighting women for sport. You could just about forgive if we were talking about darts, but this is the most dangerous of high-contact sports. It's just wrong, on every level, and he knows how wrong it is.

AnSolas · 13/02/2025 08:53

MrsBlob · 13/02/2025 07:30

This is the sort of approach I took with patient notes, when I had a patient who would describe themselves as having different pronouns than what is biologically real.
But what they were in hospital for, was very much something that can only happen to one sex.
In the notes it was all 'the patient reported' 'informed patient that...' . Can't use the real pronoun, think I might get in trouble for that.
Difficulty is, beyond that I refuse to have words put in my mouth:

Medical notes are supposed to be truthful and a record of fact.

Notes are often used in the event of complaints or litigation. Sometimes years after the fact; 15 or 20 years time, this stuff might be considered total nonsense by everyone - would this affect how what I've written down is seen? I.e less reliable/truthful.

If the notes are needed, and the patient is no longer describing themselves with those pronouns, might it be assumed I've written about the wrong patient, and I intended to write in another set of notes. Seen it happen.

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In Ireland abortion for men is still illegal and since 2015 every year about 50 "birthing bodies" get a GRC per law 1

Men can get literally actually get pregnant.

Law 1

18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

Law 2

“termination of pregnancy”, in relation to a pregnant woman, means a medical procedure which is intended to end the life of a foetus;

“woman” means a female person of any age

23.
(1) It shall be an offence for a person, by any means whatsoever, to intentionally end the life of a foetus otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(2) It shall be an offence for a person to prescribe, administer, supply or procure any drug, substance, instrument, apparatus or other thing knowing that it is intended to be used or employed with intent to end the life of a foetus, or being reckless as to whether it is intended to be so used or employed, otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply to a pregnant woman in respect of her own pregnancy.

(4) It shall be an offence for a person to aid, abet, counsel or procure a pregnant woman to intentionally end, or attempt to end, the life of the foetus of that pregnant woman otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(5) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

MrsBlob · 13/02/2025 07:30

SquirrelSoShiny · 12/02/2025 11:15

This is the approach I use which actually can be quite powerful. I never use the word she for any man but I may just overuse their name. Eg 'Lara can say whatever Lara wants but I don't have to agree.' Let the name make the point.

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This is the sort of approach I took with patient notes, when I had a patient who would describe themselves as having different pronouns than what is biologically real.
But what they were in hospital for, was very much something that can only happen to one sex.
In the notes it was all 'the patient reported' 'informed patient that...' . Can't use the real pronoun, think I might get in trouble for that.
Difficulty is, beyond that I refuse to have words put in my mouth:

Medical notes are supposed to be truthful and a record of fact.

Notes are often used in the event of complaints or litigation. Sometimes years after the fact; 15 or 20 years time, this stuff might be considered total nonsense by everyone - would this affect how what I've written down is seen? I.e less reliable/truthful.

If the notes are needed, and the patient is no longer describing themselves with those pronouns, might it be assumed I've written about the wrong patient, and I intended to write in another set of notes. Seen it happen.

Original poster

MotherEarthisaTerf · 13/02/2025 07:12

koolkatxx · 12/02/2025 11:43

Wait, how does Imane Khelif not respect women? She is a woman. She just has naturally high testosterone... she's not trans or whatever...

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I have a family member with DSD so I’m very sympathetic.

from what I read at the time - Khelif was probably born with female appearing genitalia and likely was raised as a girl until puberty. At puberty Khelif would have started male puberty and also had a lack of female puberty - so deeper voice, facial hair, no breasts, no period.

Most people with Khelifs DSD receive medical care at that point and learn about their DSD.

Personally, I would have no problem to continue using she/her pronouns for someone who has always been raised as a girl until puberty - if they didn’t make a living using their body to beat women.

By the time of the Olympics Khelif definitely knew they were male, had testes, and had gone through a male puberty. I can almost accept that it would be difficult to let that training and passion go, once you’ve reached that pinnacle of a career - but that’s why the Administrative bodies of the sport should support the female competitors.

And I’ve no problem calling Khelif male because 1. They’re male. 2. They’re using male advantages to take medals and sex segregated places away from women. 3. He uses his male body to batter women, for sport. When he knows he’s a man.

OP posts:

ANameChangePresents · 13/02/2025 00:21

koolkatxx · 12/02/2025 12:18

I just wanted to clarify that while I see and understand everyone's points, I don't want to continue debating further. I do agree with some aspects of the argument, particularly regarding fairness in sports, but when it comes to Imane’s situation, I believe it's a bit more complex. I respect where everyone is coming from, and I think these discussions are important to have, but I feel differently in her case.
For the record - I am not someone who supports males in female sports, I don't support trans women in women's sports either.

Sadly, despite your protests, you are supporting male participation in female sports.

Whatever sob story about socialisation lies behind it, Khelif fits far more cleanly into the male subset than the female subset.

We don't get to choose our innate qualities, whether we are trans or not. This goes for DSD individuals too.

I refuse to 'be nice' any more about this shit. I'd rather be truthful.

MrsBlob · 12/02/2025 23:46

TheUnusuallyQuerulentMxLauraBrown · 12/02/2025 12:23

I used to be scared of being outed as a TERF (what would my Labour Party friends think! 😱) but all the way back in 2018 a wise woman told me to write it/think of it as ‘terf’ rather than ‘TERF’.

Takes all the power out of it and makes it a funny little word that we can play with.

Terf, plural terves (like hoof/hooves or dwarf/dwarves) becomes tervern & tervish (‘she’s one of the tervern clan’ ‘she’s part of the tervish sisterhood’).

‘oooh, that sounds a bit terfy! Say it louder so the men at the back can hear it too!’

I also enjoy:

Using they/them as one word*
Using they as an actual singular pronoun eg ‘they is over there’ and/or using they/them backwards eg ‘them is over there’
Ironically embracing the rebrand of biological women as uterus owners and cervix havers by calling biological males ‘people with prostates’ and ‘anyone who has, or has had testicles’ etc and insisting that single sex spaces be divided on these grounds and labelled as such to avoid ‘unnecessary transphobia’ (ie a giant penis drawing on the door of what used to be the gents but is now for ‘penis people past and penis people present’).

I also enjoy using TRA language extra enthusiastically until they declare it terf talk and decry it as verboten eg ‘womxn’

I stopped using cross sex pronouns for anyone, even the nicest trans people a couple of years ago, of course for a while (on Mumsnet) that meant learning to write in a clunky repetitive way that always used a person’s name instead of a pronoun - this can also be quite amusing tho, eg ‘Dr Uptonself’ (just as a topical example) instead of himself/herself.

of course, the Ricky Gervais way of saying ‘HER penis’ can also be useful in it’s utter absurdity.

Lately I have even mostly completely quit using ‘Transwoman’ (one word, no space) in favour of ‘Man who says he’s a woman’ or ‘Male who claims to have a female gender identity’ or ‘Man who has medically or surgically altered his appearance to look feminine’.
(I will now only use transwoman when talking to a fence sitter if I think using the more direct and factual phrasing will make them afraid to hear the arguments)

*the Trump campaign’s ’Trump is for you, Harris is for they/them’ was very clever. So good I wondered if their marketing team had been swotting up on MN FWR!

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Re 'terf' - suffragette was also a word coined as an insult. Next time anyone calls you a 'terf', just see it as a badge of pride. It means you're:

a) capable of seeing through their bull
b) brave enough to openly contradict them

I think there's many, many people in group a, who don't also fit in group b - no wonder, people have been sacked and hounded for this.

WandaSiri · 12/02/2025 22:03

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 21:34

Maybe IK's family was strict, or maybe it's been spun that way as it makes for a good story. Who knows. All I'm saying is IK playing sport with boys is not in and of itself good evidence that IK is male.

It's evidence that the people around IK think IK is male.
Ditto the way the boxing coach slaps IK on the chest.
Basically it's all reason to doubt that IK was brought up as a girl and had no inkling IK was male until the sex screening tests.

lemmein · 12/02/2025 21:37

I haven't RTFT but thought I'd mention this post on X which addresses the use of language and how it's manipulated, it's a powerful read:

x.com/rob_thabuilder/status/1779181667715883383?s=46

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 21:34

Maybe IK's family was strict, or maybe it's been spun that way as it makes for a good story. Who knows. All I'm saying is IK playing sport with boys is not in and of itself good evidence that IK is male.

DuesToTheDirt · 12/02/2025 21:26

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 21:15

Not the point. The point is that people regularly say IK must be a man because no Algerian woman would act / dress like IK. That is not good evidence. IK's biology is better evidence. DuetotheDirt's quote above is a case in point: Algerian girls can and do play street football with boys.

Edited

Well I don't have any first-hand information on this. I'm going on articles like this one https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5442g3vxlo, which says "The eldest of six sisters and one brother, she [Imane] grew up in Ain Mesbah, a rural village where traditionally only boys would play outside, and girls would rarely leave their homes. Imane’s sporting talent was discovered by a local boxing coach as she was playing football in the street with boys."

Contradictory, no?

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 21:15

Not the point. The point is that people regularly say IK must be a man because no Algerian woman would act / dress like IK. That is not good evidence. IK's biology is better evidence. DuetotheDirt's quote above is a case in point: Algerian girls can and do play street football with boys.

TheUnusuallyQuerulentMxLauraBrown · 12/02/2025 21:09

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 21:00

As was Nadia Belala.

Does Nadia have XY chromosomes and internal testes too?

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 21:00

As was Nadia Belala.

Helleofabore · 12/02/2025 20:59

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 20:58

Dunno. There's a limit to the amount of digging I will do. I did see that Tiaret where IK is from has a female football club though.

Great. But Khelif was talent scouted at 17 playing football with the boys not girls/women.

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 20:58

Dunno. There's a limit to the amount of digging I will do. I did see that Tiaret where IK is from has a female football club though.

Helleofabore · 12/02/2025 20:40

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 20:18

Yes, as it turns out: https://inside.fifa.com/news/pioneer-belala-guiding-algeria-s-next-generation

I regularly see comments (not so much on this thread but definitely on past ones) that no Algerian woman would ever do this or dress like that. Well, Algerian women do lots of different things. Some wear veils, some play football, some are government ministers. Bit like most other places really.

Is she from a very rural conservative background as we are told Khelif is? or is Khelif not from a very rural conservative background and we are being told this to evoke an emotional response?

I mean, well done that woman by the way. She sounds awesome.

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 20:18

Yes, as it turns out: https://inside.fifa.com/news/pioneer-belala-guiding-algeria-s-next-generation

I regularly see comments (not so much on this thread but definitely on past ones) that no Algerian woman would ever do this or dress like that. Well, Algerian women do lots of different things. Some wear veils, some play football, some are government ministers. Bit like most other places really.

Pioneer Belala guiding Algeria's next generation

The idea of developing and organising women's football in Algeria was proposed in 1997, despite it being a period of instability for the country. Football fans at the time called on sports officials in Algeria’s largest provinces to gather as many fe.....

https://inside.fifa.com/news/pioneer-belala-guiding-algeria-s-next-generation

Helleofabore · 12/02/2025 19:58

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 12/02/2025 19:31

Not as adults afaik. But I wouldn't be surprised if they had kickabouts as kids.

As 17 year olds?