Pronouns - I’ve peaked 🥺

Me too, Pri0n1

I can’t bring myself to use incorrect pronouns any more. The internal shame and cognitive dissonance would be worse than the consequences, which for me are already significant as I have been rejected by family members after an argument about pronouns.

It is too reminiscent of gaslighting for me: being pressured into verbalising something I know is a lie, in order to appease someone else.

I also now see anyone as trying to push me into it as a bully. I honestly wish I didn’t feel so strongly about it, but I do.

Preferred pronouns are coercive control. Which is illegal in England and Wales.

Trying to force people to use language which does not reflect their reality is coercive. Yet, up until recently we've had COURTS doing this, the press regularly does it even where they're doing it in favour of someone being convicted of a crime and abuse. They side with the abuser.

I honestly think it's important we use correct sex pronouns as much as possible to help those in coercively controlling relationships at work - because this is what it is. Yes, people can maybe leave but perhaps not so easy when your entire life is in one location, you have a mortgage, kids etc.

And as we've seen in the SP case the abuse meted out to an employee who even in a relatively mild way doesn't go along with the coercion (which she did to some extent, she used wrong sex pronouns for Upton) is horrendous.

Don't be childish. You know what she meant.

won't use pronouns. The other day was at a meeting where didn't know anyone. Everyone except and two others used pronouns along with ' identify as ….. when introducing . said name , Job role and just left the silence hanging there for a longer than was comfortable. Doubt will be asked back

It is not harsh to call men by their correct pronouns. Preferred pronouns is all coercion & manipulation. Submission to men's wants under the guise of "being kind". I peaked as soon as I saw these men were actually being taken seriously. Before that, listening to men call themselves women & claiming to be vulnerable etc I simply saw as age-old male self-entitlement of telling women who we are & how we should be (regardless of their sexuality). It reeked of sexism so I refused to go along with it. I have been astonished that other women could not only not see the sexism, but welcome it & still believe they are feminists. I'm still absolutely gobsmacked that it has got as far as it has. It's really opened up my eyes to just how little respect women still have for themselves, which is really sad.

The way gender dysphoria is treated by the medical profession is so odd - affirmation only. We would never do this for some other mental illness.

Imagine someone had body dysmorphia, or anorexia and everyone around them including medical professionals just affirmed their disordered thinking 'yes, yes, you're too fat - keep starving yourself'. It's just bonkers.

I won’t use pronouns. The other day I was at a
meeting where I didn’t know anyone. Everyone except me and two others used their pronouns along with ‘ I identify as ….. when introducing themselves. I said my name , Job role and just left the silence hanging there for a longer than was comfortable. Doubt I will be asked back 🙄

Yes I think so

Chosen pronouns are always presented as being a 'tiny' concession, yet utterly crucial to the people who are asking for control of what words other people use.

If it's so tiny and insignificant to use compelled pronouns, why is it such a big deal for newspapers to use correct sex pronouns?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274016-express-challenges-ipso-on-pronouns

One might think it's not such a tiny issue after all.

No, the point is in this case it rather blows a hole in the 'poor thing, raised as a girl' line from another poster.

Was the Cass Report a catalyst in that it may not be applicable to every situation but it gave a lead to the way many think.
Validation? Permission to form our own opinion not join 'groupthink'?

No, the point is males shouldn’t be in female sporting categories.

https://www.boxingscene.com/will-olympic-gold-medalist-imane-khelif-become-a-professional-boxer--201192

Another example of how language becomes so important to distract from what people perceive with their eyes and from other information sources.

The point is that you can't use social behaviour to prove someone's biological sex, even in a Muslim country.

The point is that Khelif is biologically male.

Both M & F are tested for testosterone.

One cheat that was said to be happening is blood draws with higher O2 and transfusing that back before a compitition.
Another for women was blood via a planned abortion as her body ramps up to support extra physical demand from the baby.

And China was said to have made DSD policy a target not a limit.

At that level athletes (M&F) are tracking foods by brand as well as medicnes. And someone has given them a list of what brand they can eat and if its not on the list they know an ingredent could create a failed drug test.

What I always say to people about this, is that when people in places like the UK are born with these kinds of DSDs now, they are raised as boys. ANd organizations for people with DSDs worked hard to make that the standard.

It's only where it happens that the actual sex isn't recognized early on that you get situations where these boys are brought up as girls initially. Even then though it seems to become clear often what has happened as they grow, even before puberty.

You are making objections up to suit your position. This is all nonsense.

Every athlete takes a cheek swab, as they embark on their career - and that's the end of it. There is nothing nasty, invasive or racially problematic here at all.

ww.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf?origin=ppub&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&utm_term=PID100045542&CJEVENT=f4d4c8630a0411ed831b01a80a1c0e11

From the article "At the time of testing, all female athletes at the Atlanta Games were offered a questionnaire written in both English and French asking whether in their view testing of females should be continued in future Olympics and whether or not they were made anxious by the testing procedure.18Of the 928 athletes who responded, 82% felt that testing should be continued and 94% indicated that they were not made anxious by the procedure. Forty-six athletes were made "anxious" by the testing requirements that preceded their competitive events. No males were found to masquerade as females, and all females who were found to be SRY positive competed. While a similar proportion of females failed the test as in previous Olympics (Table 2), it is noteworthy that on this occasion no false positive tests were found and no athlete was barred from competition.'

So, 82% of the women answered that they felt sex testing should continue when surveyed at the 1996 Olympics. This was ignored.

I'd imagine some female athletes would welcome testing. Basic chromosome test isn't invasive, and presumably they can be tested for testosterone anyway because of the possibility of it being used as a performance enhancing drug?

The 'racial bias' is, of course, primarily due to inequities in healthcare and so later diagnosis of DSDs in some nations vs 'the west'. Exacerbated by cynical exploitation by 'talent scouts'.

And there was the Austrian skier who was also picked up and decided since he loved skiing so much that it would not stop him so he just competed as a male.

But today, how many of these athletes don't know that they are male or have they ignored some significant health issues that would have indicated that they were male?

Should every female participant undergo a chromosomal and hormonal check before competing to remove racial bias from the argument?

I think most of them supported testing, last time anyone bothered to ask them, so yes. It looks like World Athletics are bringing this in now so hopefully all other sports will follow suit and it will trickle down further than elite competition.