My 14 year old daughter has been sharing school changing rooms, including swimming, with a male. The school never told me, or her. What would you do?

@SernieBanders Well , I feel I should write something longer when I am not shattered. It will be a long version of “men really are not women, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, I definitely don’t trust them through observation, recounted experiences (mainly from women) and having been a young one.”

I would genuinely be interested in this, Sernie. Maybe avoid the 'better/worse' framing though? Those judgements are made against a background of a society built mainly with men's needs and wants in mind

I was telling my husband about this and he asked why the kid didn't just change in a private room or toilet. I thought where do I start telling him about the " need" to be amongst women/ girls, the men who carry tampons to offer to women 🤷‍♀️

Yes @SernieBanders . Rolling this back will be painful as there's a generation of children been gaslit that women and girls aren't entitled to boundaries and that what was a niche adult male fetish is now a desirable life opportunity.

But until we get schools to experience the sort of public humiliation for their failure to safeguard children from this - as seen in the current NHS Fife case - too many educators will continue with their tone deaf professional arrogance. As previously suggested - schools and dodgy professionals are going to have to be dragged in front of the courts.

That thought crossed my mind. Why would ‘a decent kid’ choose to change in a gurus changing room. Even if he deemed himself a female, wouldn’t he feel embarrassed changing in front of girls, and begs the question, if not, why not? (Unless lives in a household of women).

"Personally I don't think that any schoolchild should ever have to undress in front of any other person, child or adult, of either sex. "

This is definetely a cultural thing, and it also changes.

I grew up in 1970s/80s Germany, and for us it was clear that we would change into sports gear at the school gym, not have our sports clothes on all day. We were also required to shower afterwards, and put on our normal clothes. For this the newly built school had single sex changing rooms with ensuite showers (non-cubicle, as it is still the norm in sports facilities and pools in Germany) and toilets (cubicles). Other schools also had those facilities, if not as modern.
I cannot remember any pupil or parents protesting against it back then, although some cut out the shower (I did too, when time was running out, but most took a quick shower). The teachers asked us to shower, but did not stand there and control us. They did watch that we kept to our respective changing rooms.

There has been a change away from this (the regulations haven't changed, but the society did). My 16year old niece (raised half in the UK, half in Germany) never changed in school and never showered at school, and she says that none of her female friends does (haven't asked about the boys).

I watched the ladies at my German gym, and it's only grown women past 25-30 who are showering there or use the women's sauna. No teen girls at all. It looks as if teen members are coming dressed for sport and going home afterwards to shower.

This is not a problem of males intruding or watching, btw, my niece says she also does not want women to look at her.

I suspect that if this kid has autism then he is not yet mature enough to realise the wider implications of what he is doing. The buck stops with the school on this one. Adults have allowed this situation to arise and by allowing this child to change with the girls they are disregarding the girls feelings and further entrenching the belief that this child has that they are the opposite sex. I’m afraid it is a lose lose situation and good on the OP for highlighting it.
i find it almost impossible to believe that a whole school of teachers, and presumably governors, have allowed this to happen. I don’t blame the parents in this situation because they may have been told that their child will commit suicide if they don’t transition (although this is not backed up by the stats) and the parents may be looking to the school for guidance which makes it even more shocking that they are not following Cass Report recommendations.
I imagine the teachers are afraid to speak up for fear of being called transphobic but I would hope that they can find their voices now - for everyone’s sake

Space and cost
Then the new setup has lrisks of the adults or children been given access private space and a single child in a state of undress.

Other children in an open changing room create a level of social protection as they all* know the expected minimum social standards in a changing room.

• all: if a child lacks capacity that child needed to be managed under the safeguarding policy (eg no access)

@SernieBanders Here is a recent document that the Department of Education have produced:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/66d7301b9084b18b95709f75/Keeping_children_safe_in_education_2024.pdf
It is statutory. Schools and colleges in England must have regard to it when carrying out their duties to safeguard and promote the welfare of children.

All of it will help and particularly the section starting p.111. Direct quotes from the document support your argument eg. ‘staff should be aware it is more likely girls will be the victims of sexual violence and sexual harassment and more likely it will be perpetrated by boys.’

As you know there will be a complaints system to follow first. The Department of Education has a complaint form too but you need to exhaust the school system first.

In my correspondence with the Department of Education regarding toilet safety, they are clear that governors and the school have ultimate responsibility for anything that happens to a child in their care. Whatever good or bad advice the school is taking, the buck stops with them and their governors.

OP, being a man, is fully aware of what some men can do. This is why he wants his DD to learn to keep her boundaries - rather than being persuaded otherwise because 'trans'. Also, whatever the school thinks it is doing, it is breaking the law by having a boy of 14 changing with girls.

And also this male is a decent kid

That he's choosing to impose himself upon girls' changing rooms indicates that he's not decent at all. He's mature enough to know that he's transgressing boundaries.

Personally I don't think that any schoolchild should ever have to undress in front of any other person, child or adult, of either sex. But that is without prejudice to the OP's valid complaint.

I just can't believe how far we've gone down the road to insanity, that a parent who doesn't want their 14 year old daughter to be made to get naked (she doesn't get a choice) in front of a male is being questioned as to his motives.

That's just how much kool aid some people have drunk.

'Unseemly' ffs!

Actually, no. Single sex carriages on trains were introduced in Britain in 1874 after a young lady was attacked in a non-corridor compartment by an officer travelling with her. It ended with her climbing out the door and clinging to the outside of the train until arrival at a station.
So people were becoming aware there was a safeguarding issue for women travelling alone, and rules were changed accordingly.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34061094#:~:text=In%20October%201874%20they%20were,who%20has%20researched%20the%20subject.
So this was a progressive move, allowing women to travel alone, in a safe environment. BTW, non-corridor compartments were phased out in the late 1980s s after a murder on such a train.

Same goes for public toilets, London got its first Ladies public toilet in 1893! For men, urinals behind screens had existed for decades. Although it took until ww1 to introduce legislation for toilets, so that women could help in the war effort and work at munitions factories.
https://leahbroad.substack.com/p/why-toilets-were-a-feminist-issue
Until that point, women had to measure their time out of the house, and return home in time for their next visit to the toilet... or pay at a restaurant or hotel to use their facilities (which of course was out of the question for poor women).

Taking away single-sex accomodations like these takes women back to these times. Nothing progressive about it at all.

@WiddlinDiddlin

Teachers can be abusers, of course. This risk is mitigated through a number of measures including DRB checks. And as far as I'm aware (though it's been a long time since I worked in a school), almost all schools have policies stating that teachers should avoid being alone with a solitary pupil, and I would imagine this is especially true if the pupil is getting changed! These measures are examples of safeguarding. Another example of safeguarding is separate changing facilities for male and female pupils.

We cannot ever eliminate all risk because unfortunately humans are what we are. But we can use safeguarding measures to make things as safe as possible so that children can continue to benefit from a full education.

To those who (pretend to) think OP is creepy ... obviously he's found himself where the rest of us all have sooner or later - trying to work out and articulate why (say) single sex changing rooms exist in the first place.

He's concerned about safeguarding because he's worried about his daughter. But he could also just point out that sex segregation in undress/toileting situations is universally desired by humans, for privacy and dignity. By claiming an exemption from this rule, TRAs have destroyed it for everyone. What gave them the right to take away our choice like that?

Oh undoubtedly - but changing rooms were supervised when I was at school.

Of course then theres the issue that the supervising teacher could be an abuser...
Or some of the other same sex pupils could be...

Or... lets scrap getting changed in schools altogether because at this point no one can trust anyone to do anything that isn't abusing each other.

It's not about the specific danger posed by the specific child in this class - I'm sure the kid in question is perfectly harmless. The issue here is teaching girls that their boundaries don't matter, that their privacy, dignity etc comes second to someone else's validation. Don't question the male-bodied classmate playing on your sports team, don't expect a female-only space at a time when your own body is changing beyond all recognition, don't make a fuss, just know your place, etc. How can we hope to raise strong and confident girls with a clear idea of boundaries and consent when we are treating them like this?

For me this has always been the massive overreach of the wider issue of self ID - it destroys any attempt at safeguarding, asks us all to disbelieve our eyes and ears, and teaches girls (it's always the girls, funny that), that their own needs and boundaries do not matter.

As a number of your posts have been deleted it's hard to know what's setting off your spidey senses.
But attacking those raising the alarm is a common tactic used to silence women and `I see no reason not to assume the same tactic can be used against men seeking to safeguard children or promote women's rights.

@Helleofabore - Yesterday 19:35

“Perhaps OP is struggling with their own ‘gender identity’ and is extremely jealous? Who knows. What I do know, OP is batshit insane and needs therapy”

A parent concerned by safeguarding their
daughter in the situation of sharing changing rooms with male children is most certainly not batshit insane. This is remarkable post.

Would you agree with @Helleofabore's comment?

The issue I had is how OP was presenting his internalised hate against men when he is a man. It’s very unbecoming and raises doubts as to his agenda.

but as I said, OP is presenting this with an agenda that doesn’t sit well with me. I just can’t figure out what is setting my alarms off.

How is objecting to a school placing a male 14 year old boy in a room with 14 year old girls internalised hate against men?

Do you mean by unbecoming?

Google says
unbecoming
(of behaviour) not fitting or appropriate; unseemly.
"it was unbecoming for a university to do anything so crass as advertising its wares"

So

"it was unbecoming for the OP to do anything so crass as objecting to a school placing a male 14 year old boy in a room with 14 year old girls"

What am I missing?
What alarm bell is ringing?

I just asked my teenage son (yes poll of one) and he said he would see them as a boy still. So no not most young people. He said his friends would feel the same .

… “[actual facts are] very unbecoming and raises doubts”

👋

Look. Everyone knows men are majority of the problem - let’s not pretend women are completely innocent, even if very small percentage statistically. The issue I had is how OP was presenting his internalised hate against men when he is a man. It’s very unbecoming and raises doubts as to his agenda.

Men should not change with women. This is undisputed. For those transitioning, there should be separate spaces and not having either gender forced to share if it makes them uncomfortable. This is legitimate and a valid concern to raise but as I said, OP is presenting this with an agenda that doesn’t sit well with me. I just can’t figure out what is setting my alarms off.