Stonewall change definition of transphobia - questioning gender identity ok now

Where are you referring to as being 'better organised' and less 'scare on toilet use'?

I think you will find that at the moment, the clinicians and that government is looking very seriously at what they have allowed to happen in their country in light of the following countries declaring that there is too little evidence to support the current WPATH recommended treatment plans.

I will link up what I can later today. However, the following countries did reviews of the studies and all found there was too little or no evidence to support the treatments (and some were well before Cass).

Sweden
Norway
Finland
Denmark
France
Germany

Yes, angry man controls how woman behaves. Again.

It's always amazing to me how many posters we've seen on this board when asked 'can you back up that statement with evidence' (following the concept of Russell's Teapot) clearly do a quick google and then add random links without reading so much as the abstract, let alone the whole study. And then say 'look!! Evidence!!!'

And as so many times before, when other posters say 'erm, that doesn't prove what you think it does/it's a press release/that study is from 1972', we get a highly emotionally manipulative post at which I suppose we're meant to throw our hands up and say 'you know what! Never mind the (lack of) evidence! Let's all believe what we're told without questions! Because...be kind!'

'If I did that, knowing my son, oh, how angry he would be with me. My son is kindhearted friendly, he even does the dishes without me needing to ask. Go figure :-)'

Is your son aware of the manipulative power he has over you?

Regarding the other factors that contribute to 'trans children', this article was posted on 'The failure of social work to safeguard Children in Care' thread and discusses one of these factors.

https://archive.is/3BVZK
Blackpool’s forsaken children
Abused girls are choosing to transition
BY Julie Bindel

What should you do?

You welcome the child into your house and treat them as you do other children. And you explain to your own children that people cannot change sex.

I have experienced this. My young teen was in a friend group where out of the seven of them, five had transgender identities. Their friends were all welcome and treated the same as any other of my teen's friends.

However, my teen also is aware that people cannot change sex. And that sometimes sex matters and needs to be treated as a higher priority than gender identity.

In the end though, my teen also found out that I chose to stop using 'they' for their friends and reverted to correct sex pronouns. Because it was very difficult to keep track of all the chosen pronouns and that meant that my discussions about them alone with my teen, was contorted and I understood that I was going out of my way to comply with someone's philosophical belief in a way that I would not do for anyone else's philosophical belief. And why should I lie in that way?

If you want to know why many parents on this board have a depth of understanding about the ideological motivations, the political movement and how it impacts women and girls, then it is because many posters have sought to find answers just like you have.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

Then, the trained classifier was applied to the PCA-transformed study sample generating the person-specific Brain Sex index—a number representing the degree of femaleness/maleness on a continuum (consistent with the training, a Brain Sex index of “0” signifies the average female brain and a Brain Sex index of “1” the average male brain).

So we’re back to male and female brains again. Putting aside how women are classified as ‘0’ and men as ‘1’ 🤔 it’s notable how that article says preciously little about the ‘trained classifier’ ie the actual machine learning algorithm they (I think) programmed themselves on a couple of hundred brains.

In any event, some men have higher or lower levels of testosterone and women have higher and lower levels of oestrogen and progesterone. This does not make them any less of a man or less of a woman does it?

It is a tad depressing, that we still try to shoehorn people in a mold fit for the environment rather than fit for themselves

You’ll find that almost all regular FWR posters are fully behind people dressing as they want, dating and marrying who they want and living happily. That is not an entry ticket to every space they think they might like to enter. We still need to recognise the reality of our biological selves and the sex dimorphism of men v women and the need to offer protection of SSSs for women because of this.

NB why is it always psychologists and psychiatrists who author these studies?

The issue with Biometry (especially phrenology adjacent nonsense such as "lady brain") is when the vast majority of noisy males instantly fail the tests. Because A they male as all heck and B their very strong feelings about their identity didn't affect their biological parameters, at all)

I mean it's not an issue for me. I would respectfully demure from that bun fight and let the two teams have at it. In the red corner : people whose highest level of science qualifications is "A Meme". In the blue corner : males flunking their lady biometrics and needing a waambulance.

This is a deeply manipulative scenario, and completely opposite to my point. “Vanessa” has been told that he can only be feminine if he is a girl, and that is an abusive act by the adults around him. There was no reason why the child could not grow up as a comfortably feminine boy, and it’s the adult sexism and (likely) homophobia at the root of their actions.

The fact that they need to force their child’s peers, wider community, and school to collude with their sexist worldview is not to be admired in any way.

The more that I read about the 'Trans Child' and their families, the more I began to read the odd case that reminded of Munchausen's by Proxy. Then there were the cases that appeared deeply homophobic, where for the parents a straight 'Trans Child' was preferable to a (probably will grow up to be) Gay Child.

*I am not saying that this is the case for all families with trans identified children as there are definitely further factors at play.

'And now suddenly it is upon me to provide all the worlds evidence ? I don't mind passing on the info which I found and look for more. But as this is public info, anyone can find it.'

Do you understand that you are making statements that you cannot support with evidence? Do you understand the harm in do this?

If you cannot support your statements with evidence, after looking, have you thought about why that is, and why you have believed what you have said? You actually said:

'scientific understanding of genetics, but next to that is also the biology and the process of development. The scientific definition on transgender people is that in their development, the brain developed in a way that it does not match the body'.

Do you understand why you are getting the response you are getting?

There are no neurological markers for being transgender. The only commonality shared by all people with a transgender identity is a philosophical belief. It is also a philosophical belief that does not reflect material reality.

For instance, there is a taxi driver study (and I cannot find it, maybe someone else can though, this board is loaded with information) that shows brain scans of people who have the same interests, such as driving and memorising the streets of London, have similar brain scans. They also have identified that male people who are same sex attracted are likely to share similar brain scans.

Hormones have a significant interaction with the brain and this will show up on brain scans. Even when taken exogenously.

The study you posted did not control for same sex attraction in their group. They also stated that those male people with gender identities did not have a 'female' brain scan. So, if a brain develops different patterns due to interests and repeated actions creating different responses, then of course male people with interests that they consider 'female' because they are different from stereotypical male interests, will have scans that group. And if they are taking exogenous estrogen then the brain scans will also differ from male scans who are not taking estrogen.

But they are not female brains.

So, no. Male people with the philosophical belief that doesn't reflect the material reality of their body (even after extreme body modifications) are not born in the 'wrong body'. That is their wishing to have a different body. That is fine, but no one should be expected to act in ways that affirm that.

If you are going to post falsehoods that have already been debunked then expect pushback and requests for clarification. If the links you provided are full of unproven facts then of course you are going to be called out.

I think your definition of "friendly" needs to go back to its original meaning too.

@Janine2363
I'm going to assume that you’re posting in good faith and out of wanting to “be kind” you’ve followed some very dodgy science, believed captured organisations and activist led opinion rather than actual evidence.

Have you read the Cass report? Actually read it yourself not read others’ opinions on it or what they have told you it says? If you have then I’d love to hear your thoughts on why the methodology is flawed (again, your thoughts, not what activists have told you it says).

There is also so much incorrect information in your post about menopause and HRT and effects on men that it’s hard to know where to start but I’ll give it a go.
1 There isn’t a consensus on why women experience the mood and emotional changes they do in (peri)menopause. It’s not as simple as saying it’s the reduction of Oestrogen levels because many women experience these symptoms during perimenopause when their Oestrogen levels are normal. There is some thought that it may be related to fluctuating O levels but it’s not clear. There are also so many confounding factors that influence mood that it’s hard to tease apart. For many women changes in menopause coincide with children leaving home, caring for older relatives, realisation of the end of reproductive role of our bodies, sexism and ageism at work and in society. You can’t just say it’s O levels doing it.

2 Men who have O are not at increased risk of suicide. The fact you’ve brought Alan Turing into this is frankly crass. He was a brilliant, complex man who was treated despicably by the UK state so to say the reason he committed suicide was because he had DSB is offensive and diminishes him and what he suffered.

3 There is no reliable evidence of “trans” brains. To start with how would you assess it? What are you measuring? Size of different parts of the brain on MRI doesn’t necessarily correlate to function. Brains get small as we age and on average women’s brains are smaller than men’s so are we saying that people become more female as they age? No. Because it’s clearly nonsense. So if not size, then what? Functional MRI? Measure how trans people’s brains light up to stimuli compared to male and female people? Again, so many confounding factors in that. And we haven’t even got on to neuroplasticity yet.

And no, the medical community is not in agreement with all this. Most of us are horrified by the anti science anti evidence based practice that this movement demands of us.

You're not being piled on with requests for evidence but the thing about this board and those of us that have been here some time is that if you make assertions or statements of fact you will be asked what your rationale or evidence is for that. Women here have spent years looking at this but we still continue to ask ourselves whether we’re right, whether we’ve missed something so when people make assertions we like to check for ourselves. Unfortunately what usually happens is the person making the claims has either hugely misunderstood and in which case if they stick around and discuss it they might see why they’re wrong. Or they’re not ready for challenges to their world view so they get cross or flounce. If you’re really interested rather than here just to scold us (as happens so often) then stick around and discuss!

Correlation is not causation.

I can point you to studies which show the extremist brain and how it differs from the average person. The interesting thing is how the brain changes if the person concerned stops looking at very narrow views and is exposed to a range of views.

We also have never identified a 'female' brain. That's sexist nonsense. They can not tell the difference between socialisation and an innate sense of anything because we simply do not understand the brain well enough.

And yes exposure to ideas has been demonstrated to change the brain.

So how can we possibly eliminate the influence of childhood abuse, trauma or the role of parental influence?! The key point here being that we KNOW there is a link in the backgrounds of those who present as trans. We can demonstrate that. Something occurring spontaneously and innately would not show this type of pattern.

And if the brain is this plastic and trans activism is acting in an extreme cult like way, then the research in others areas is hugely relevant and important.

As I say there is no demonstrable 'lady brain' or 'male brain' in science.

Yes, and this is the reason why I came looking for experience of other parents

My son had a friend: Vince, he came regularly over to play at ours, or my son at theirs.

Recently I noticed he'd no come to visit us for a while, so I asked my son. After some tenuous moments my son said: "Well, she is now Vanessa"

"Is she still welcome to come here ?"

Well of course she is ! And how would I approach here ? Well, she;s Vanessa now isn't she ? Should I tell her that she is he : "No Vanessa, you got it all wrong, your Vince, you just have to be happy in the body you were given and behave like a man !"

If I did that, knowing my son, oh, how angry he would be with me. My son is kindhearted friendly, he even does the dishes without me needing to ask. Go figure :-)

If I did, should Vanessa be willing to come to our place, would she feel welcome.

At school, should I tell my son to stay away from "him" and not call her "her" ?

Vanessa when she did visit us again was in fact happy, not broken, just herself. And she befriended my daughter as well :-)

Actually reading and analysing links that you gave as evidence is now not being 'friendly enough'?

Oh dear.

And now suddenly it is upon me to provide all the worlds evidence ?

Well yes, if you make such ridiculous outlandish statements you’re expected to back them up.

In fact I am getting aware on what's going on in Europe, thanks to the Cass report and what European health & transgender care organizations replied to that.

My impression is that it is quite a bit better organized, but there too a risk of being overwhelmed in particular by the amount of minors seeking help in figuring out who they are.

The biggest take away though is that being transgender is in western Europe as normal as anything and in particular (as where to I gave my first reply) in their societies people simply seem to respect how transgender people ask to be named. Also no scare on toilet use etc. Less 'culture wars'.

If I'd be the parent of a transgender child, I think I might prefer being there ...

As for the second study, it's an abstract from a press conference for an International Conference in 2018 and identified the need for further research. The only other research I can find easily after 2018/2019 from the author Dr Julie Bakker which again addresses the same sort of testing/imaging is from 2023 and even the abstract reads

'We found some evidence in favor of the sexual differentiation hypothesis at the functional level, but this was less evident at the structural level. We also observed some specific transgender neural signatures, suggesting that they might present a unique brain phenotype rather than being shifted towards either end of the male-female spectrum. Our results further suggest that the years between childhood and mid-adolescence represent an important period in which puberty-related factors influence several neural characteristics, such as white matter development and functional connectivity patterns, in both a sex and gender identity specific way. These latter observations thus lead to the important question about the possible negative consequences of delaying puberty on neurodevelopment. To further address this question, larger-scale, longitudinal studies are required to increase our understanding of the possible neurodevelopmental impacts of delaying puberty in transgender youth.'

The study from 2018 involved young people (no ages given as it's a press release/abstract rather than a full published study) despite the evidence that the human brain doesn't develop fully until the age of 25.

I don’t think causation for having a gender identity is of much relevance to most issues raised on FWR. Whether it is a developmental condition, mental health condition, or part of normal human variation, males are males and females are females and in some aspects of life this matters.

I think causation is relevant to finding a cure or treatment for those who experience it as an affliction. It would also help those who feel blamed for making a bad ‘choice’ when they experience their gender identity as being outside of their control.

Well, thank you

Can we be a bit friendlier please !

I actually came to this forum because I had a question & looking for more information: A friend of my son is transgender, how other parents approach it.

And now suddenly it is upon me to provide all the worlds evidence ? I don't mind passing on the info which I found and look for more. But as this is public info, anyone can find it.

So I don't see why you'd want to argue with me. Because that's what it seems, and it is not helpful (to me) (and sorry if I sound a bit harsh myself)

It is nowadays not easy to find good information, so it is good to read more and ask questions, but perhaps just claiming misinformation has its own bias.

But it is a good point, there is actually information on detransitioning. It appears though that a major reason was being discriminated, which if true, would be really sad.

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9516050/

The most common reasons cited were pressure from a parent (36%), transitioning was too hard (33%), too much harassment or discrimination (31%), and trouble getting a job (29%).

It is also the talk of the day in the US, which nowaday's is as transgender 'friendly' as your average fundamental religious theocracy. I admit not liking at all what's happening over there, so perhaps I am biased too. Anyway from the US opponents themselves. Their report on harms.

"The 409-page report claimed that while the harms of such medical treatment are “sparse”, medical treatment should be avoided in favor of therapy for youth diagnosed with gender dysphoria."

Did you read through the study in that first link?

Aside from the incredibly small sample sizes and use of ideological language, the poster you are replying to said - 'not the one that never controlled for same sex attraction and made a stronger conclusion than the evidence showed'.

The authors themselves acknowledge that such factors were not addressed in their testing.

And again, even the authors themselves admit that, even with (dubiously evidenced) differences in the brain between 'cisgender' females, 'cisgender' males and males who identify as trans (which appears to mainly focus on the very obvious sex based difference of brain size between men and women), the brains of men who identify as trans still aligns far more closely to that of 'cisgender' males.

They don't get a 'ladybrain'.

I totally agree to that !

Especially for young people, over the years it was found that about 80% of the minors who sought and received good care could figure out for themselves that they were not transgender (N.B figuring out for themselves is self identification: Knowing who you are).

For me this suggests that good & accessible transgender care for minors is very important. Not forgetting the 20% that suffer from dysphoria and are helped in their journey.

This was, as I understood it, one of the conclusions of the Cass report, there are definitely things to improve. I also read feedback from transgender care organizations in Europe who noted that most, if not all recommendations for the UK were already in place over there.

The thing they disagreed on though was the approach. The Cass report suggest 'double blind' tests, which means you deliberately does not help some. The other health care organizations thought that unethical (deliberately not helping) also with the argument that in psychology that is hardly ever done that way

Indeed, but it seems like the most brutal were to force people back to what others thought normal.

We have the infamous 'conversion therapies' for homosexual people, then the same for transgender, then people found out (fortunately) that that doesn't work, but very unfortunately it seems that all those lessons were forgotten and we're back at square zero

It is a tad depressing, that we still try to shoehorn people in a mold fit for the environment rather than fit for themselves :-(