Teen declared they were trans and now says they can't be in contact with us

That's nice of you.

Could you tell me where my Muslim friend and Orthodox Jew neighbour can change and pee in that scenario, please? Because by allowing in that man you've made the space mixed sex and now they can't use them any more.

They've lost 100% of their provision in order that a male gets his preference of all the spaces. What do they do now?

And don't even start me on the abused and traumatised women who will be triggered into full blown panic by encountering an obviously male person in an intimate, single sex space.

But hey, be kind right?

(Where's the kindness to women? Ever?)

Will it change patterns of behaviour?

Nope.

Frustrating and worn out by deliberate missing the point and obvious smears not 'aggression'.

Funny how you have resorted to that rather than admit properly that you don't actually have a clue but aren't willing to admit that because you think being nice and being seen to be nice is more important.

You don't have kids do you?

Will hormones change his height? His shoe size? They certainly won't change his strength to less of an average woman's.

You calling him a she is up to you, but he remains a man. A eunach on hormones.

I don't understand why you're swearing at this. I think what I wrote is very reasonable.

I find you too aggressive to really engage with, I'm afraid.

If this person sounded and looked exactly like a woman would they therefore be a woman? How would anyone know? Does it matter? Genuine questions.

I think that GRCs should only be issued to people who have transitioned medically, including having had gender reassignment surgery. And no certificate means you have to use the changing rooms of their birth sex.

I mean, if a bio male has no male genitalia and is on hormones that suppress his male characteristics and others that give him feminine characteristics, by that point, to me he's not male enough for me to worry about him in a changing room. And I would probably call him her at that point.

Well, you can acknowledge that they feel better, sure.

And when my son's spindly, fragile, probably gay and obviously vulnerable friend next comes round I will use the name they've chosen and make them welcome. But I'll be noting that they don't seem to feel happier at all, because 'the world hates them so much'.

The world doesn't hate them at all, of course. What the world is mostly saying it's that they are not, and never can be, female. That they can wear whatever they like but they should stay out of women's sports and spaces because they don't belong.

The kindly ones and the echo chamber tell them that this is hate. That the world wants them dead.

I say true kindness would have been helping this kid to analyse what about being a boy/man scared or revolted them so much; what female-coded qualities they felt they couldn't express as a boy, and work with them to realise they can, in a healthy, unmodified male body. To embrace reality, not live a scared, impaired life as a terrified medical patient.

It is obscene.

Give me bloody strength.

So to 'engage on the same level' would involve weeks of research, you can't be bothered to do...

But you are happy to also dismiss me as 'just someone who believes its mental illness' and 'not real' and that this is not ok because we should just believe and be kind?

Rather than perhaps acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, I've done a hell of a research and have lived experience which might be really valuable and inciteful to others who find themselves in this mess and address a lot of things that people like you are happy to overlook in their quest to be seen to do all the right things and appear accepting. All because its 'too complicated and too much like hard work' to understand.

In short, you think its all about virtue signalling rather than understanding a complex issue.

Can you actually hear yourself?!

You really are part of the problem of why we can't address matters and actually help very vulnerable individuals and their families.

Its really bloody annoys me when there's such obvious attempts to smear others who really can't just 'walk away' from the subject.

Honestly, posts like this really bloody stagger me.

Maybe you could spend some of your time reading respected sources and evidence. Perhaps Transgender Trend - who you dismiss as "anti trans"? Dismissing evidence without reading it because you don't like the source has all the hallmarks of a transactivist - which I know you state that you're not.

If you had done the research into the serial gaslighting of children by adults into believing that their bodies are flawed but a "sex change" is the solution, you may find it easier to appreciate the nuanced issues of being a parent and both putting in place boundaries yet supporting an older child?

or entering women's spaces via self-ID.

There are no reasons men should be in women's spaces, piece of paper saying they are a "woman" or not.

@ChicLilacSeal but have you considered how horrible it is for women to share their single sex spaces with a man who wants to indulge in their fantasy of living as a woman? His male privilege will allow him to walk into any female single sex space and force his presence on a natal woman. How is that scenario not horrible for a woman whose rights are being violated by a man yet again.

She was mostly concerned with which pronouns she ought to use and obviously hadn’t thought about it too deeply. I kept my mouth shut as they were an established group and I was new, but it struck me how obvious it was, presumably to every woman in that room, that there was a man there.

And of course, whether she thought about it or not, I assume various women would react differently, some rushing to make him welcome, others rolling their eyes and avoiding him, but he will never, ever live as a woman, because everyone there reacts to him as a man that they have to work around.

Exactly.

Agree about resilience, but I don't think that 18-year-olds who are at uni, away from home for the first time, and some of them suffering from depression, anxiety, etc. are the most resilient cohort. In fact, I think it's a real flashpoint for mental health in many young people's lives.

Exactly, which is why the narrative that GC views are harmful to those with a trans identity needs to be challenged. Telling young people that they can't enjoy mutually supportive relationships with people who disagree with them about the nature of sex and gender is extremely harmful. ANYONE, who has a genuine intention to support people experiencing gender confusion and distress would let them know that beliefs and views only cause harm if you attribute harmful meaning to them. The mantra of 'be kind' is often paired with a very limited notion of what kindness is.

I agree with your last statement. That's where I get thoroughly sick of the trans activists. They act like no one else has rights. Trans people should be accepted, but in turn, they also need to accept that their bodies are more powerful than biological women's and they should not be playing in women's sports or entering women's spaces via self-ID.

I'm happy to believe that they identify with the "trans" label, like I'm happy that someone feels aligned with goth culture or considers themselves a typical Gemini. I don't think they should expect anything else.

I was at a party yesterday (all women) and, kind of in-passing, one of the other guests mentioned she had gone to a WI meeting and the moment she walked in, she heard a male voice and realized there was a man there.

She was mostly concerned with which pronouns she ought to have used when discussing it, and obviously hadn’t thought about it too deeply. I kept my mouth shut as they were an established group of friends and I was new, but it struck me how obvious it must have been to every woman at that WI meeting, that there was a man there.

And of course, whether she thought about it or not, I assume various women would react differently, some rushing to make him welcome, others rolling their eyes and avoiding him, but he will never, ever live as a woman, because everyone there reacts to him as a man that they have to work around.

And whether the woman who mentioned it consciously resented the fact that there had been a man at her WI meeting, it was obviously enough of a jarring experience that she was still mentioning it to a group of unrelated women, several days later.

But if a young adult says they are trans, and really means it, and has felt like it for a long time, and finally feels "right" when they live as the opposite sex, isn't it pretty horrible to deny their reality? (Their reality being that they feel better as the opposite sex.)

Not to them.

Lots of things are meaningful to individuals but not to the wider world. They don't all get special treatment or carte blanche to behave in ways that cause harm to others.

There is absolutely nothing kind about encouraging a child to believe that their atypical interests mean they are not a 'proper' version of their natal sex.

And that this can be corrected with drugs and surgery that will leave them infertile, unable ever to experience orgasm and without the vital development that puberty brings.

And that anyone who objects to this, or refuses to play along with their wishful thinking, hates them and wants them dead.

Nothing at all. It's not kindness, it's at best complacent avoidance of critical thinking, and at worst actively facilitating a medical atrocity.

Not to them.

@RedToothBrush thank you for your brilliant posts. They are so clearly thought out. Sometimes the distress becomes so much that I can understand why families affirm, which would be fine if it were not for the harm that medical transitioning can cause.
Thank you also for mentioning the sunk cost fallacy. It makes so much sense when thought of like that.
I have read quite a bit on the comparisons with eating disorders and the need/desire of the autistic person to have control. Eating disorder clinics recognise this and they offer support to families going through this with their loved one regardless of their age. Gender clinics, on the other hand, offer no support to struggling families but merely affirm affirm affirm and act in a deeply unprofessional manner by not exploring the impact of co occurring mental health conditions and by driving a wedge between the trans person and their caring family. Just as the trans person rails against their parents so too does the person with anorexia but the dating disorder clinic, recognises the power of the family in supporting the patient in their recovery. As I write this down, it is dawning on me that the gender clinics are also acting very much like a cult and isolating the distressed young person from their family. Deeply unprofessional.

But it's meaningless.