Teen declared they were trans and now says they can't be in contact with us

Clearly bothered to read the bloody thread then...

... what is it with the scolders and the tone policers who always have some excuse as to why they can't actually read what anyone says here, but are happy to just smear them or act as if they have superior knowledge (which falls apart at the mildest of questions)?

Statistics on young people questioning their gender were made up to attempt to prove that suicide rates were high. They were not high. Somebody just plucked a figure out of the air and said it was fact which it wasn't. It reminds me a bit of the made up statistics about MMR and autism. The lie gets repeated and repeated, that does not make it true.

Why does getting abuse from being on the tv, somehow become the problem of women to resolve in their changing rooms?

I'm sorry, but as I've said before on this thread, deal with the abuse rather than making this issue a problem for women to put up with at their expense so men don't have to change their behavior.

Why should it ALWAYS be the women who have to put up and shut up with the consequences of direct and indirect unacceptable behavior of me?

Women are not support humans to males. We are not there to validate males sense of identity. Frankly we've got enough problems of our own to deal with. Lack this vast lack of knowledge of women's biology.

As I said on another thread, skirts and high heels are not reproductive organs. Those reproductive organs are rather important and surgical transition is purely cosmetic.

Sex is not gender and sex matters. If we are prevented from taking about sex because it might be distressing for some of the 'women' in our presence, women are thrown under an almighty bus.

And yes this includes issues like sexual assault and voyeurism because sex matters when it comes to access to women's bodies and women's dignity and issues of consent.

Suicide rates amongst trans young people are the highest

No, they are not.

The coherent point ship sailed some time ago. Well no, it never left the harbour.

Criticising the poster is just a smokescreen to distract from the fact that anti-trans attitudes can have tragic consequences.

No. It is reprehensible to speculate about the death of a young man simply to prop up your flimsy argument about gender. He isn't "trans". I thought "trans" meant physically transitioning to you? Try to at least make some sort of coherent point.

For the hard of thinking over there, he wasn't trans.

OK, I'm reprehensible, abhorrent, all the things. That doesn't change the fact that the way some parts of society treat non-gender-conforming males dreadfully affects their mental health, and that Vivienne's fate is very likely to be a result of that. Criticising the poster is just a smokescreen to distract from the fact that anti-trans attitudes can have tragic consequences.

I'm being a responsible adult pointing out how reprehensible it is for someone to weaponise a death to try to point score online.

I agree. Emotional blackmail isn't exactly a novel approach though.

@ChicLilacSeal

You absolutely cannot say why this man chose to end his life, it's pure speculation. Suicide is rarely attributable to one factor. And I'm not sure why you're blaming it on women on Mumsnet. How much abuse do you think women in the public eye get?

I'm being a responsible adult pointing out how reprehensible it is for someone to weaponise a death to try to point score online. It's a fact that a coroner determines the cause of death in the UK.
The Samaritans have very clear guidelines about the responsible reporting of suicide in the media and advise against making unsubstantiated allegations.

I'm not interested in why men have cosmetic surgery to try to represent a women's body. The social contract and our laws exist for good reasons.
No women anywhere in the world campaigned to have men sharing spaces where they undress. It's a totally male led demand.
No men in women's spaces.

Here you are - listen to this TV presenter discussing the very same issue:

https://x.com/BevJacksonAuth/status/1883082021918183482

So you think it's coincidence that The Vivienne died on a weekend when there was an outpouring of abuse because she was dressed as a woman? You don't want to admit that there are tragic consequences for trans denial and abuse, so you're criticising me, which doesn't take away from that fact that this performer was very likely driven to suicide by some of the same kind of attitudes displayed on this thread. Criticise me all you like, but it doesn't change the uncomfortable truth that rejection and abuse of men who don't conform to male stereotypes can contribute to their mental suffering, sometimes resulting in tragedy. If not for that terrible outpouring of hate after Blankety-Blank, where Viv went on TV in a dress and makeup, they would probably still be alive.

I don't think it's reasonable to think that someone would go so far as to remove their penis and balls and take feminizing hormones simply to stand in cubicles next to biological women who are also in cubicles. It's a much more reasonable deduction that people who go through such a thing genuinely feel themselves to be female and don't have nefarious reasons for living as one. The vast majority of changing rooms these days aren't communal anyway; they have cubicles. So a man with bad intentions would - providing GRCs were only issued after full transitions - have to go through all the surgery and hormones to use mostly private cubicles. Which would make no sense.

I don't agree with self-ID and using that to access changing rooms. No way.

The reason for a death is determined by a coroner at an inquest - not randoms on the internet. It's so disrespectful to weaponise a death for your own argumentative reasons. Nobody should be speculating about this.

So if I respond, I get accused of derailing, but if I try not to derail by not responding, I'm being tactical. There's no winning!

Society operates on self regulation - citizens following the rules with sanctions for those that breach the laws of the land. Single sex spaces are an important part of life allowing women and girls privacy and safety from unknown men with most men respecting them because they're self disciplined & socially responsible.

There is no place for men - with or without a certificate - in women's spaces where women and girls undress or are vulnerable. The powerful and wealthy trans lobby groups could have fought for 3rd spaces. But that doesn't give men who think they're women the validation that they require. They require the presence of women and girls in states of undress for that validation.

It's been said before - women are not support humans for unhappy men Indecent exposure (flashing) and voyeurism are crimes. Wedging men into women's spaces enables these criminal offences.

Not fallacious; The Vivienne was driven to suicide by the abuse they received as a result of being a man dressed as a woman.

I already said - by showing a GR certificate, if those could only be issued after someone had gone through a full transition. (I don't agree with self-ID.) Nowhere did I say that trans people should be allowed access or not by whether their appearance passes. If they do pass, it's less likely they'd be asked to show their cert, of course, but if there's any doubt, they could show their GRC.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic I'm reluctant to engage because then I get accused of derailing the entire thread, but to answer your question, I meant change sex as far as is possible. Obviously even someone who has transitioned surgically, medically (hormones) and socially isn't going to be the same as a biological woman.

@RedToothBrush What's interesting about me being born and raised in Brighton, in the context of this discussion?

You sound like a really lovely grandparent, and your grandchild is lucky to have you. However, I have to say that it sounds as if you have taken on board something that I believe is coercive. You say that you will "get things wrong sometimes". Who persuaded you that it is wrong to use pronouns instinctively, but that you must police your own language and use pronouns as referring to your grandchild's self-identified "gender"? To me, this little issue is at the heart of what is wrong with gender identity theory, and it causes immense distress to those who are closest to someone who is trans-identifying.

It's possible that your grandchild's parents are fine with preferred pronouns, but I really doubt that is the case. Your grandchild has almost certainly been taught, by those pushing gender identity thinking, that it is hateful to use sex-based (and also history-based) pronouns, and that any parent or grandparent who loves them will use gender-based pronouns. But that helps to cement a person's trans identity, and from what I have seen every step further into transition, whether social or medical, gives a short term feeling of happiness but a long-term increase in dysphoria, because it becomes obvious that the transition has not "worked". So there is pressure to take the next step along a fairly predictable pathway. Loved ones are "not supportive enough", so distancing from them is "necessary" for the trans person's mental health. Going "no contact" allows the pain of not being affirmed and celebrated to be turned on parents and grandparents, who should have been "more supportive". And so it goes on, with hormones, mastectomies, and much more rarely genital surgery.

This controlling, coercive behaviour is extremely difficult to cope with. I am currently struggling with how to handle the demands my son is making; if I go along with them, I am encouraging further coercive behaviour, but if I push back, that is evidence that I am unloving and don't deserve a relationship with him.

I certainly don't think you are completely unreasonable, but this sentence is interesting:

Changing sex and then living happily ever after as that new sex, and much happier than before, is true and real and possible.

What do you mean by "changing sex"? It's possible to change secondary sex characteristics to a simulation of the other sex; it's possible to artificially override someone's endocrine system to simulate the other sex. But to actually change someone's sex would require removing all the sex-related organs and replacing them with those of the other sex, and to change the body's endocrine system so that it self-sustainably supported all the functions of the surgically inserted opposite sex organs.

An FtM transition would for example need at least sometimes to result in a fully functioning penis, testicles and prostate which would allow the person to father a child without further medical intervention. An MtF transition in a person of child-bearing age would need at least sometimes to result in fully functioning ovaries, fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix and a vagina capable of a vaginal delivery (not to mention a functioning clitoris!), and breasts and endocrine system capable of supporting breast feeding without exogenous hormonal intervention. A genuine sex change cannot be a partial sex change. That's not even considering chromosomes.

At the moment, "bottom surgery" results in a mockery of the wonderful sex organs that most of us have. And it is at the expense of a great deal of pain and often damage to, for example, urinary tracts.

Utter nonsense. Regardless of how he presents, a man cannot ever be anything other than a man - an adult member of the male sex - and as such has no place in a female single-sex space.

In their dreams. 🙄 If a man has gone through male puberty he will be on average, taller, stronger, with longer limbs and bigger, more powerful heart and lungs and a deeper voice. His gait will be different because of his narrower pelvis. Even if he has had face feminisation surgery (which most don't) there are so many small clues to actual sex when you see someone in person, not in photos.