Sam Harris

'Conservatives' are no more homogenous than 'the left'.

Some 'conservatives' are libertarian.

It's more the religious 'conservatives' who take their sexual morality and ideas about equality (or lack thereof) from selected parts of their various texts who are the problem - 'surrendered wives' as an example, obviously the anti abortion and homophobic strands etc.

What are the sex stereotypes that conservatives are supposedly wanting to employ?

Tbh, in my experience conservatives are most often pretty blase about things like women in traditionally male sports, women who don't wear make up, women who are welders, etc.

And an awful lot of liberals are desperate to make sure their girls aren't into Disney princesses while desperately encouraging it from their boys.

Not conforming to sex stereotypes should be fine, but if a man puts on a dress and a wig and claims that makes him a woman, the appropriate response is mockery.

Following this with interest, must say that it's very worrisome that the recent left-leaning catchphrase of 'free speech but not free from consequences', is everywhere which should be ironic, but clearly isn't, because the free part should be crucial and yet being completely ignored, it feels very Orwellian. I'm left leaning, and until several years ago, voted green. Now politically homeless.

In the UK at least, it seems due diligence is an after thought, institutions are so afraid to be ostracized and labelled that they'll act first and avoid thinking later if they can help it, even to the detriment of their own cause. Think of all the charities and organisations who have had a key role here and who went unchecked despite pushing harmful ideas. Look at what is happening with the Cass report. We never learn. Yes, it feels like things are moving, but very painfully and still not very coherent. The age old saying of the left eat their own seems truer than ever. If any issues have been stirred towards the LGBT community, the cause is from the organisations claiming to represent them and not GC women.

I think a lot of left wing LGBT people think this is unacceptable (but you can call the trad wives loons it's a one way thing).

Just quoting myself @TimTimButtons to say I didn't mean you in this, just some left wing LGBT people in genral.

Also although I'm making points I think are broadly true, I've reflected that I'm being a bit of a dick when you were only trying to raise a potential concern.

I don't think removing LGB rights is at all likely, but I am sorry if you feel worried and have experienced increased intolerance.

Imo, it's rather unlikely that the US constitution, in its original meaning, ever intended to protect gay marriage. A lot of liberals aren't going to care about that and just care about their side winning.

Well OK, but then they can't complain about (very questionable) biased decisions coming from the Supreme Court if it ends up even more packed with conservative judges.

Trump has never indicated any policy plans on changes to gay marriage laws. He doesn't give a toss about gay marriage. Even if he did he wouldn't do it because it would lose them the elections and the party wouldn't support it. You are scaremongering on something no one is remotely intending. Why? Can't we stick to the actual legal issues currently threatening women and children?

You don't say what intolerance you're expereincing?

Personally I do have less tolerance than I used to for rainbow lanyards, pride parades and anything alphabet soup related. It might be that? Or maybe you are mistaken for a man in women's spaces? Which I presume is very rare but you might be the rarity?
If it's refusal for services jobs etc you should take legal action because you have rights.

I think there is a confusion on the left between rights and celebration. Some seem to have thought getting the rights meant everyone now had to celebrate the lifestyle and say it was great and wonderful and that saying anything different should now be illegal. I come across this a lot with young people actually, who think having a religious view of homosexuality is, or should be, illegal.

Maybe that's the thing that needs to be addressed aftre all this is over: you can think trad wives are loons and you can even say so if you want, and they can think the same of you. You probably won't be friends but you can't legally discrimate whatever your views.

I think a lot of left wing LGBT people think this is unacceptable (but you can call the trad wives loons it's a one way thing).

This is why I think this has always been a free speech issue above all else.

AGP has killed off the idea of a middle ground for me. I am unwilling to go along with anything AGPs want because I’ve learned (from listening to them) that they do not have the safety, rights or dignity of women in mind at any stage.

That video feels like the story of my life 😏 watching this happen to GC women on a mass scale with the Lefty bros this week isn’t as much of a surprise to me as I thought it would be 🤷‍♀️

Wrt LGB rights, you missed the Conservative stacked supreme court, Clarence Thomas being open to re-examining the ruling on equal marriage and Trump indicating that was also up for that? Yes, people are most assuredly talking about taking those away.

Which can be handwaved away of course, but that particular response didn't go so well for Roe. And before anyone says it, yes, it happened under a democrat administration- via a court stacked conservative during the first Trump term. That's how it works in the US.

This isn't about a binary choice of tradwife or feminist commune. I'm a gnc married lesbian who has watched intolerance spike in the past 5 years. And I'll watch the responses to my posts eventually just boil down to 'Blame the TRAs'. A big part of why I even started being connected to terfery in the first place was because I thought it was about rejecting gendered restrictions and was assured that hands across the aisle stuff with conservatives was simply pragmatism for a specific end.
I posted to say that the frankly terrifying ascendancy of the Conservatives in the US is an important moment to put clear water between those who have a broadminded perspective and those traditional conservatives who are bizarrely termed gender critical. Given that you've talked about 'disagreements' it seems quite in keeping to do so.

What usually happens is women end up doing 'the double shift' - i.e. going out to work full time then rushing home to cook, then spending the evening cleaning.

It isn't just due to the voters who swung to Trump, it's also down to the voters who stayed at home.
There are many people who would usually vote Democrat, (men and women) who would not vote for Trump but couldn't bring themselves to vote for the so called 'progressive' nonsense the Democrats were pushing, so they just stayed home.

Well we're going to see if they do it now.

LGB now have all their rights? No one is suggsting taking those away.

And if you are worried about gender non conforming women, not he men, I'm still not sure what the worry is? There's no hint of legislation to restrict this.

Culturally there is a movement back to celebrating traditional roles with the trad wife stuff, but it's obviously optional.

If anything I think a positive outcome is more likley to be an accpetance of a wider varity of choices for women, Crack on with your trad wife stuff or live in a feminist commune. The state doesn't care. As long as everyone has equal rights.

If what you are seeking though is a society where trad wife types have diappeared and everyone wears unisex clothing, I think you'll be disapointed. And it sounds shit.

I think what the liberals might have to learn from all this is that tolerance goes both ways: liberals tolerate conservative views and lifetysles and vice versa but we all have rights in law.

I may be totally misunderstinding what your worry is as you don't actually say beyond the vague worry, but like I said let's get the rights stuff done before we argue culture anyeway.
I'm OK with disagreeing on culture, I'm not OK with women's rights being unedrmined.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5207418-i-didnt-leave-the-left-the-left-left-me?page=1

I do find it fascinating how much men are centred on MN. I didn't specify gender non conforming men, and yet that's the defensive canard tossed at me for merely pointing out, as a terfy left winger, that our chickens are about to come home to roost and that backlash against LGBT that a few people were concerned about is swinging in, and that it's probably time, if you're concerned about that, to underline that you support JKR's liberal-minded tweet.

Women can’t be forced back into the kitchen because most men can’t buy houses on one income anymore 🤷‍♀️

Well, the strategy was, as I understand it, harnessing the tiger of traditional conservatism by focusing on the paternalism of protecting children and some women, and then getting them to enact laws that protect women's rights.

It's going to be quite an interesting task to get them to do that, and given that the primary focus of the Conservative populism that has just swept the board in the US is on women who do not comply with gendered expectations, I think the focus on mocking men in dresses is a choice that might not bear fruit.

But tbh, I think the generation of Tate-influenced men now cheerfully telling women 'your body, my choice' was always by far the more concerning demographic.

And I personally am really not worried about the rights of those poor men who just want to wear dresses not to be ridiculed in the future, in fact I think what's been revealed is that societal norms have an important constraining role on men's abuse.

This.

Well yes there is an intersting discussion to be had about the extent to which gender non conformity should be encouraged or tolerated in society. And I think the right would differ from the left in viewing encouraging conformity to societal norms in children as generally good for them, and the left would be of a more let every child freely express themselves position.

It will come to an interesting debate on how you view children and childhood and differing views and parental practices on that should be expected and accepted.

I'm not sure why you are so afraid of disagrememnt once we've all achieved and agreed it's marvellous thing that at least children are now not medicalised and women have their rights protected? I'm happy to disagree after that, bring it on, happy days.

And I personally am really not worried about the rights of those poor men who just want to wear dresses not to be ridiculed in the future, in fact I think what's been revealed is that societal norms have an important constraning role on men's abuse.

But let's not get ahead of oursleves. let's get the rights in law protected before we worry and argue about the sad men who just want to wear a wig and lipstick.

I agree that conservatives do hold the reins now. Gender-critical thought began with feminists on the left and centre-left. It's now been taken over, to a large extent, by the far right. It's very sad, but the left have only themselves to blame for this. They have spent the past 7 or 8 years hurling the most vile and disgusting abuse at gender-critical feminists, refusing to listen to us, shutting us down, getting us kicked out of our jobs and off social media platforms.

Ultimately it was obvious that the right would occupy the space vacated by the left, and because the right has far more money and power, they were able to make this issue their own.

What the left should do now is spend some time reflecting on where they went wrong, make a heartfelt apology to the women they've vilified, and start again.

Guess what? I'm not going to hold my breath.

I don't think you should be optimistic. It's crystal clear that the shift against gender non conformity is in the ascendancy. I also dispute that we had it in the 80s without issue. Sure, we can look back at Annie Lennox and Boy George etc messing with make up & androgyny, but this notion that everyone was loosey goosey chill about it is really not the case.
I think a lot of liberal GC people are in for a very rude awakening if they seriously think acceptance of gender non conformity is part of the endgame for those who voted for Trump's America. His stated intentions about ending 'gender affirming care' have been welcomed with relief by many who are concerned about puberty blockers and so on, but that same set of intentions that will insist there are only two genders and banning the suggestion that transition is possible also talks about focusing on 'the nuclear family' and mothers and fathers. Anyone who thinks that's not going to be all about traditional conservative gender is painfully naive.

That was always the trade-off here. It's been said by so many that the reason to go with conservative political alliances is because even if they hate women, they know what one is, so you can still fight for women and other liberal perspectives. Well, now's the time. Conservatives hold all the reins now. They will certainly put a stop to puberty blockers and so on. So that's objective achieved. But they're not going to stop there, and they never were. Feels like it's time for left leaning gender critical campaigners to examine how they plan to enact the 'no vilification, mocking or meanness towards those who don't present in stereotypical ways', particularly those who are also not heterosexual. I'm also not hopeful that's going to happen.

Starts at 45 minutes.

I really hope not, lesbians in particular have been very vocal on this issue. I've had friends who have been told they're actually straight men because they have short hair and are SSA!

Bloody hell