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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does theDBS Sensitve Application Route for trans applicants undermines the value of a DBS check and pose a safeguarding issue

166 replies

IwantToRetire · 08/11/2024 21:23

From a recent NHS job advert:

The Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) offers a confidential checking service for transgender applicants in accordance with the Gender Recognition Act 2004. This is known as the sensitive applications route, and is available for all levels of DBS check - basic, standard and enhanced.

The sensitive applications route gives transgender applicants the choice not to have any gender or name information disclosed on their DBS certificate that could reveal their previous identity. To contact the sensitive applications team, please telephone

https://www.nhsjobs.com/job/UK/North_Yorkshire/Scarborough/York_Scarborough_Teaching_Hospitals_NHS_Foundation_Trust/Physiotherapist/Physiotherapist-v6767892

Government Guidance
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/transgender-applications

KPSS wrote about this being a safeguarding issue 2 years ago
https://kpssinfo.org/dbs-checks-and-identity-verification-pdf/

DBS Checks and Identity Verification PDF - Keep Prisons Single Sex

https://kpssinfo.org/dbs-checks-and-identity-verification-pdf

OP posts:
Frowningprovidence · 11/11/2024 09:10

TrumptonsFireEngine · 11/11/2024 08:58

But if you have a record that would bar you from employment or volunteering then WHY would you give your previous name? Especially if your intent in applying in the first place is nefarious? And if you intend to abuse children then why would you be put off by a sanction for withholding your name? Doesn’t the fact it relies on you giving your name undermine its whole point as it fails for exactly those individuals you want to catch?

I assume when you do the check it would throw up anomalies like you said you were born in 1988 but the first record of thus name is 2008 so it gets rejected?
The group 1 ID all has your birth date on it.

Frowningprovidence · 11/11/2024 08:58

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 10/11/2024 23:38

So, have I understood this correctly:

If you apply for a DBS check your are supposed to list all your previous names.

Except if you've transitioned, then you don't have to (and therefore only your post transition identity is checked, any crimes committed by your previous persona won't show up? )

I'm a bit unclear from that link.

I think it says instead of applying through the normal way you go through this team, but they still check your previous names. Then the certificate at the end says your new gender on it not your birth sex.
I dont quite see who checks your ud in this route. It doesn't actually outline the process.

TrumptonsFireEngine · 11/11/2024 08:58

But if you have a record that would bar you from employment or volunteering then WHY would you give your previous name? Especially if your intent in applying in the first place is nefarious? And if you intend to abuse children then why would you be put off by a sanction for withholding your name? Doesn’t the fact it relies on you giving your name undermine its whole point as it fails for exactly those individuals you want to catch?

ANameChangePresents · 11/11/2024 08:49

Enough4me · 10/11/2024 23:58

People who say they are trans say their previous name is a 'dead name', as though that person no longer exists. Could they in theory use this ideology to not disclose said dead name?

I'd hope not, in so much that they should suffer the legal consequences of intentional obfuscation if they do. If I change my name as part of some religious ceremony or because of spousal trauma, I don't receive special dispensation. Why should trans ideology receive special dispensation?

ANameChangePresents · 11/11/2024 08:47

illinivich · 10/11/2024 23:55

As i said above. The only pupose of the special team set up to help trans applications is to hide their sex.

Sure. I agree that verifying someone's sex may be necessary for certain roles. That's why reissuance of birth certificates is also so insidious.

That said, whilst it sounds like pedantry, I don't think sex verification is a core goal of a DBS check? My understanding is that it's for checking individuals against the Adults' & Children's Barred Lists. e.g. flagging if someone has a relevant criminal conviction or associated criminal intelligence.

Of course I'm aghast at the wider situation. Maybe, nay, probably people applying for roles where sex matters should have to declare trans status. But I can also see a circumstance where criminality is what matters/sex is irrelevant (say, working for an MOD role) and therefore this pathway isn't problematic.

Enough4me · 10/11/2024 23:58

People who say they are trans say their previous name is a 'dead name', as though that person no longer exists. Could they in theory use this ideology to not disclose said dead name?

illinivich · 10/11/2024 23:55

ANameChangePresents · 10/11/2024 22:55

Whilst knowing/validating the declared sex of an individual may be necessary for certain jobs, it's not the function of a DBS check really to my understanding. No more than it would verify their references are accurate. It's out of scope I believe.

As i said above. The only pupose of the special team set up to help trans applications is to hide their sex.

illinivich · 10/11/2024 23:52

No.

Anyone identifying as trans can use the sensitivity team where they would do the same background check, but ensure that any other names would not be given to the employer.

The purpose of this service is to hide the sex of the applicant. Theres no other reason for it.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 10/11/2024 23:38

So, have I understood this correctly:

If you apply for a DBS check your are supposed to list all your previous names.

Except if you've transitioned, then you don't have to (and therefore only your post transition identity is checked, any crimes committed by your previous persona won't show up? )

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/11/2024 23:03

ANameChangePresents · 10/11/2024 22:55

Whilst knowing/validating the declared sex of an individual may be necessary for certain jobs, it's not the function of a DBS check really to my understanding. No more than it would verify their references are accurate. It's out of scope I believe.

If a DBS check is unable to confirm name, date of birth and sex then it's unlikely to be able to identify relevant criminal convictions and investigations that could pose a danger to children.
How easily are we persuaded to abandon fundamental safeguarding principles for spurious reasons.

ANameChangePresents · 10/11/2024 22:55

illinivich · 10/11/2024 21:50

Wouldn't an important part of many DBS checks be the sex of an employee?

A school would need to know that a teacher doesnt have a criminal record, but also needs to know the sex. If the DBS hides the true sex of someone, how does that help safeguarding?

Whilst knowing/validating the declared sex of an individual may be necessary for certain jobs, it's not the function of a DBS check really to my understanding. No more than it would verify their references are accurate. It's out of scope I believe.

illinivich · 10/11/2024 21:50

Wouldn't an important part of many DBS checks be the sex of an employee?

A school would need to know that a teacher doesnt have a criminal record, but also needs to know the sex. If the DBS hides the true sex of someone, how does that help safeguarding?

Talkinpeace · 10/11/2024 18:07

@Ereshkigalangcleg
Sadly some people (particularly those who immigrated to the UK as adults) have more than one NI number

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/11/2024 19:30

I've often wondered why DBS and criminal records can't use something like your national insurance number to link name changes, rather than rekying on honesty

That's what KPSS recommends in its report.

MissingLynks · 09/11/2024 17:32

IwantToRetire · 09/11/2024 01:38

I think it can be assumed that you can't just change your name and hide previous convictions.

As said up thread, if the intent of the "sensitive route" is not to out someone with a GRC (or new identity based on a driving licence name) it would be in some instances, say where a prison sentence was served, or a type of crime, would be an identifier of born sex.

It would be great to hear from someone who had actually had to do a DBS check under the conditions of the "sensitve route". It maybe that in terms of what the employer is told, nothing of relevance would be ommitted and the outcome no different.

It isn't for me about someone trying to conceal they are trans, for employers and service users that a whole other issue which many have not worked out how to deal with.

For me it is an issue of fairness, does the very kind, considerate, "sensitve route" mean that people who are trans are treated / judged differently at the expense of the DBS being as truthful and accurate as one where this option is not used.

I've done one for a previous job. A DBS check would not omit mention of a crime or a prison sentence for anyone. My check was not any less accurate than anyone else's. It's true I had to submit details of my previous name, but so would anyone else who's ever had a name change, including women who've changed their name on marriage (a far more numerous segment of the population than trans people).

3teens2cats · 09/11/2024 07:42

All employers should understand the limitations of a dbs check. It should just be one part of your safe recruitment process. Google search your applicants, get thorough references and full employment history. Follow up everything. If someone has changed their name during adulthood that would be a very tricky thing to hide if thorough background checks are done. Unfortunately many organisations just rely on the false sense of security a clear dbs brings.

TickingAlongNicely · 09/11/2024 07:01

I've often wondered why DBS and criminal records can't use something like your national insurance number to link name changes, rather than rekying on honesty

WarriorN · 09/11/2024 06:58

Questionforthedons · 08/11/2024 21:49

Hang on, I’m pretty GC but can’t see the risk here. Isn’t this just saying the trans person will have to declare their previous name etc for the DBS check so they can perform a full check but the info on name won’t be given to the employer.

That doesn’t validate the check surely?

Yes it's a risk

Schools now must do wider checks of social media and news reports. An individual may not have broken the law but they may be highly inappropriate for a job working with children or vulnerable people.

There was also a case whereby a young woman had murdered a child in Spain. She was herself late teens so didn't serve very long. She moved to the U.K. and started working in a nursery. U.K. DBS was clear. Name came up in searches online - Spanish news reports.

IwantToRetire · 09/11/2024 01:38

I think it can be assumed that you can't just change your name and hide previous convictions.

As said up thread, if the intent of the "sensitive route" is not to out someone with a GRC (or new identity based on a driving licence name) it would be in some instances, say where a prison sentence was served, or a type of crime, would be an identifier of born sex.

It would be great to hear from someone who had actually had to do a DBS check under the conditions of the "sensitve route". It maybe that in terms of what the employer is told, nothing of relevance would be ommitted and the outcome no different.

It isn't for me about someone trying to conceal they are trans, for employers and service users that a whole other issue which many have not worked out how to deal with.

For me it is an issue of fairness, does the very kind, considerate, "sensitve route" mean that people who are trans are treated / judged differently at the expense of the DBS being as truthful and accurate as one where this option is not used.

OP posts:
TWETMIRF · 09/11/2024 00:07

TrumptonsFireEngine · 08/11/2024 23:18

How does John get a birth certificate naming him as James?

You don't have to give a birth certificate as one of your pieces of ID. Perfectly possible to only provide ID in current name. I do DBS checks for Girlguiding and most people don't use birth certificate IME

Mysterian · 08/11/2024 23:38

I think it can be assumed that you can't just change your name and hide previous convictions. That would be as ridiculously obvious as Kier Starmer's number 10 log in password being "Kierstarmer69!".

TrumptonsFireEngine · 08/11/2024 23:18

parietal · 08/11/2024 23:04

It seems this is more of a name change loophole. The form asks an applicant to declare all names. But if Mr James Nicely doesn't declare that he was previously convicted as Mr John Nasty, does the current system have any way to pick that up? Or are all name changes a potential opportunity to get a new clean DBS?

How does John get a birth certificate naming him as James?

Apollo441 · 08/11/2024 23:08

Shouldn't there be a database linking name changes. That way there would be no way of hiding past crimes from DBS checks.

parietal · 08/11/2024 23:04

It seems this is more of a name change loophole. The form asks an applicant to declare all names. But if Mr James Nicely doesn't declare that he was previously convicted as Mr John Nasty, does the current system have any way to pick that up? Or are all name changes a potential opportunity to get a new clean DBS?

Redshoeblueshoe · 08/11/2024 23:03

Yes