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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Butlin's Skegness removes 5 trans women from female toilets

163 replies

TERFtown · 09/10/2024 20:19

https://x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1843952648460140987?s=46&t=p6GESSn09HWHVXYgTLIbJg

(I don't want to call them "trans women", but I don't know what terminology gets me banned here!)

"Security guards removed five cross-dressing men, including this one, from the women's toilets at Bang Face, a dance festival at Butlin's Skegness this weekend. The men responded with a coordinated protest and the security guards have now "been removed""

Anyone up for a TERFy weekend in Butlin's?!? Wine

OP posts:
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10
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 10/10/2024 15:36

So what seems to have happened is

person of possibly masculine build with a beard goes into toilet ( not ‘bathroom’ please, this is Skegness) . Security guard ‘cis’ female attempts to stop bearded person. Unclear whether other four born male persons are already i. The female facility, but security guards ( two) attempt to eject them. persons in question do not leave. Security calls for back up, attempts to make them leave.

What happens next is not clear because no one is under oath, and no one (surprisingly ) was filming, but it seems to have degenerated into attempted and resisted forcible removal. One person lost their wig, literally not metaphorically.

Butlins grovel, blame contractors….blah blah blah. People post on Twitter about how this shows they are the most marginalised etc, ignoring that most women would just vacate a facility if told to by a security guard.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 10/10/2024 15:31

Perhaps that pp was trying to get their head around what "living like a woman" really looks like? Because the impression I'm getting is, anything goes and the more flamboyant, out there , public and loud, the better

Interesting though that on threads like these a poster like me who doesn't believe anyone is born in the wrong body, is often told I have no idea what it's like to be trans so should get back in my box and stop judging, let people be their authentic selves, yadda yadda.

But apparently even a biological male can know what it feels like to be a woman. Wondering why that is ...

Chersfrozenface · 10/10/2024 15:29

trans people pretend to be women full time, while cross dressers just do it on occasion

If I were to come across a man dressed as a woman only for a short time - say in a bar, or a toilet - how would I know which he is?

Notamum12345577 · 10/10/2024 15:25

Fenlandia · 10/10/2024 10:53

"trying to behave as a woman does" - Could you pop the list of these activities and behaviours onto this thread because I for one would love to know?

I knew I would get picked up on however I worded it. ‘Living full time as a woman’ is I believe the accepted term, but obviously I would get picked up on that phrase here. So I was trying to find a better one. If you prefer ‘trans people pretend to be women full time, while corse dressers just do it on occasion’.

Zahariel · 10/10/2024 15:09

MissMoneyFairy · 10/10/2024 14:49

Why didn't they use the male toilets, just out to cause a scene

it's literally a staged event to get eye balls

Justme56 · 10/10/2024 15:07

Obviously they were easily recognisable by security, so everyone else would have known they were male too. Shouldn’t have had any issue with the men’s (or I guess the loo in their chalet), but no the women’s it was. Imagine if you were the only woman in the loo at the time, sitting there with your knickers around your ankles and then heard 5 male voices right outside your cubicle. They really are entitled men.

OuterSpaceCadet · 10/10/2024 14:58

HandDefence · 10/10/2024 14:42

No men are women, obviously. But when they look like this one you can be - reasonably - sure they're not gay. His being in the ladies is utterly indefensible.

I wonder if a former be kinder accidentally "educated" themselves at Bangface when they discovered this guy?

MissMoneyFairy · 10/10/2024 14:49

Why didn't they use the male toilets, just out to cause a scene

PaperClips007 · 10/10/2024 13:59

Fenlandia · 10/10/2024 12:07

Don't forget the pillow fights. Women of all ages bond with their women friends by pillow fights!

Popping a leg on the sink, like women do as we tilt our heads.🤔

BonfireLady · 10/10/2024 13:33

Helleofabore · 10/10/2024 11:25

That is me out too. Blimey. Husband is going to be confused.

I currently have hairy legs. I generally wax them in summer and don't bother in winter. I've always done that, even when I was younger and shaved instead of waxing my legs. I didn't wear a dress or skirt (unless it was forced on to me e.g. school uniform) until I was in my early 20s as I hated my legs.
Also I don't wear lipstick (winter or summer) unless I'm going out for the evening, and then I forget to reapply it so TBH I may as well not have bothered.

If I believed I had a gender identity, I think I'd be demi-meteo-chronodirectional-gender-fluid. I should probably use the women's loos in summer and the men's in winter if I'm faced with only two options. Hopefully I can get a flag and a stripe on the Progress Flag 🤞

Edited to add: I removed leg hair when single and/or in the early months of relationships 😂

BonfireLady · 10/10/2024 13:19

Helleofabore · 10/10/2024 09:49

For those reading along on this thread, just a reminder that we have recently been shown just how people's transgender identities are based on philosophical belief.

Because to be a person with a transgender identity is not based on having gender dysphoria. We have been told this now by professional academics as well as trans people themselves.

Therefore the only commonality for people with transgender identities is that their philosophical belief. Meaning no one needs to comply with another persons philosophical belief. No one.

No male can ever experience “life as a woman.” They are not living life as a woman. No matter how much they are trying.

They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman. Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. They are not a woman. It is rather misogynistic that they believe they are acting like a woman or living as a woman.

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is. How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome.

Which is that they will always be just a male person who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.
No matter how kind or respectful that person who is trying to shame you into complying to use that language tells you that it is to use the preferred language, it is someone who is demanding that you support their own philosophical belief.

And no one has to pretend that any person on this earth has changed sex or is the sex they identify as but is materially not.
And those attempting to shame others in doing so, are not the 'kind' people that they would have you believe.

And no male person can ‘live as a woman’.

This ⬆️⬆️⬆️

I don't challenge anyone's belief - be that in ghosts, god, reincarnation, Allah, a "gendered soul" or more.

What I do challenge is someone forcing their belief on to me as truth/fact. I would feel the same about any belief.

FWIW I do believe in ghosts - yes, I believe that they exist, following my own experience. However, I don't believe in god and I don't have answers about why I think there are "souls" (I've got no idea what else ghosts would be, given mine was an interactive experience) but I absolutely know why I don't think there are "gendered souls". I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop believing there are, but I'm fighting back on enforced belief. Thankfully Christians (Catholics) aren't insisting that we accept transubstantiated wine in blood banks or that we adapt sex ed in school to accommodate the exception of virgin birth... but that's exactly what TRAs are doing: they are forcing others to accommodate their belief as truth.

It's just as daft as me demanding that my local council sets aside dedicated spaces for ghosts to visit loved ones because it makes me feel hurt and unsafe that churches tell me that they've either gone to heaven or hell. FFS. And no, apart from a few little chats with my mum after she died (without interaction - just me talking out loud when I wanted to share something), I've got no intention of trying to talk to ghosts. Even though nothing bad happened, my interactive experience was both fascinating and terrifying enough.

(Edited for better clarity - and grammar)

SirChenjins · 10/10/2024 12:51

Interestingly, whilst trying to behave as a woman the one thing I've never done is apply for a gender certificate.

Does that mean I'm not actually a woman?

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 10/10/2024 12:43

Fenlandia · 10/10/2024 12:07

Don't forget the pillow fights. Women of all ages bond with their women friends by pillow fights!

Yes, while wearing pink satin à la Grease

eatfigs · 10/10/2024 12:32

Chersfrozenface · 10/10/2024 12:23

The trouble is that the security guards in question are reported to have been sacked.

What will their replacements do, especially if put through a TRA re-education camp? What about during other events and the usual family holiday season?

I read on social media they were part of a security firm subcontracted just for the event and not Butlins permanent staff. Hopefully they've got a decent boss who understands the situation.

ArabellaScott · 10/10/2024 12:29

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Cailin66 · 10/10/2024 12:27

Notamum12345577 · 10/10/2024 09:01

Were they cross drawing or trans? There is a difference. Cross dressing is what it says on the tin, they are just dressing in women’s clothes sometimes. If trans they are living full time dressed as a woman/trying to behave as a woman does.

What about Eddie Izzard then? He says he's trans but sometimes he isn't? Does that make him a cross dresser instead?

Chersfrozenface · 10/10/2024 12:23

eatfigs · 10/10/2024 12:18

The silver lining here is knowing that these security guards did the right thing.

The bland-faced corporate response was to be expected but it's very pleasing to hear that on the ground they're not taking any shit from these invasive males.

The trouble is that the security guards in question are reported to have been sacked.

What will their replacements do, especially if put through a TRA re-education camp? What about during other events and the usual family holiday season?

eatfigs · 10/10/2024 12:20

Women's boundaries being decisively asserted is the best sort of "transphobia". Thank you, anonymous security guards.

eatfigs · 10/10/2024 12:18

The silver lining here is knowing that these security guards did the right thing.

The bland-faced corporate response was to be expected but it's very pleasing to hear that on the ground they're not taking any shit from these invasive males.

NPET · 10/10/2024 12:14

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 10/10/2024 08:54

Quite ... actually this particular venue is often used for Dance meets so yep, lots of girls and younger siblings wandering in all the time.

But I keep forgetting that the declaration by a male bodied person that they have lady feelz miraculously reduces potential offending risks by like 93% or something ... 😳

Thx. Agree.
But I've been told elsewhere that "BangFace" is a particular dance festival that won't attract under18s, so those of us over 18 would just have to accept it I guess 😐. Still support the security guards!

Fenlandia · 10/10/2024 12:07

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 10/10/2024 11:13

I’m pretty certain any hypothetical list would include:

wearing lipstick
tilting your head to one side when listening
heels
flicking your hair
only talking about shoes and handbags
always having sanpro in your handbag to offer other women in public toilets

Don't forget the pillow fights. Women of all ages bond with their women friends by pillow fights!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/10/2024 11:38

I rarely meet men who do this. I never meet extremely capable/ talented men who do this. I'm not even suggesting it is necessarily a good thing to do because too much self effacement comes with a personal health cost eventually. But our society is set up in such a way that men simply aren't required to act like this. The socialisation starts early. Arguably with the hair clips and giant bows endured by baby girls.

Yes, exactly.

OuterSpaceCadet · 10/10/2024 11:32

The the most over represented quality I can think of amongst the diverse women I know is that of pathologically putting others' needs first, often but not always coupled with being extraordinarily capable or talented.

I rarely meet men who do this. I never meet extremely capable/ talented men who do this. I'm not even suggesting it is necessarily a good thing to do because too much self effacement comes with a personal health cost eventually. But our society is set up in such a way that men simply aren't required to act like this. The socialisation starts early. Arguably with the hair clips and giant bows endured by baby girls.

The irony is that the transwoman that truly acted like a woman would stay the fuck out of women's spaces because they'd put the needs of women first.

Helleofabore · 10/10/2024 11:25

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 10/10/2024 11:13

I’m pretty certain any hypothetical list would include:

wearing lipstick
tilting your head to one side when listening
heels
flicking your hair
only talking about shoes and handbags
always having sanpro in your handbag to offer other women in public toilets

That is me out too. Blimey. Husband is going to be confused.