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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's jail campaigners demand transmen offenders should be kept in female prisons *Title edited at OP's request*

241 replies

IwantToRetire · 27/09/2024 01:29

Women's jail campaigners are demanding that the growing number of trans male offenders should be kept in female jails.

Dr Kate Coleman, of Keep Prisons Single Sex, said that the instances of women identifying as men mid-sentence is a “growing problem”.

But she believes that such prisoners should be treated as women - and that moving them to men’s prisons or a special “trans unit” would be misguided and dangerous.

“Whilst the focus, rightly in my view, has been on the risks that males who identify as transgender pose to women in prison, the challenges of adequately and appropriately meeting the needs of females who identify as transgender must be addressed.

“These needs must be met within the female estate.

“I understand that females who identify as men are difficult to manage.

“But there is no quandary about where to house her. She is female and belongs in the female estate. She must be managed in a way that is continuous with the way in which all other female prisoners are managed. Housing her in the male estate is not even a question that should be asked.

“This is for her own safety and for her own benefit as it is in the female estate that she will be able to access the services and programmes that are necessary for her to progress.”

NB Only extracts, NOT the whole article which can be read in full at https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/womens-jail-campaigners-demand-trans-33750904

Women's jail campaigners demand trans men should be kept in female prisons

Keep Prisons Single Sex claims there are more and more women self identifying as men in women's jails - but male estate would be a danger to them

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/womens-jail-campaigners-demand-trans-33750904

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borntobequiet · 13/10/2025 17:20

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:45

I'm just waiting for someone to provide evidence for the claim that biological sex is unchangeable. It obviously depends on how one defines biological sex, which involves a political choice.

And by the way, according to millions of years of evolution, human beings can't fly either.

And by the way, according to millions of years of evolution, human beings can't fly either.

They still can’t. What are you on?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 17:04

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 17:01

And the onus is on you to explain exactly what you mean by biological sex.

Which role you potentially play in human reproduction.

So in order to have changed sex, a trans man would need to have the kind of reproductive system necessary to father a child, and a trans woman would need to have the reproductive system necessary to get pregnant and give birth.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 17:03

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 16:57

I will sit in a metal tube with big engines attached to it.

Ideally at the end where the champagne is served at the bar.

Are you the kid that just got expelled from school for taking magic mushrooms by any chance?

No, but thanks for the thought.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 17:01

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 16:58

You can't prove a negative. The onus is on you to provide evidence for the claim that biological sex in humans is changeable.

And the onus is on you to explain exactly what you mean by biological sex.

JanesLittleGirl · 13/10/2025 16:59

And if anyone wanted a classic example of playing chess with a pigeon.....

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 16:58

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:45

I'm just waiting for someone to provide evidence for the claim that biological sex is unchangeable. It obviously depends on how one defines biological sex, which involves a political choice.

And by the way, according to millions of years of evolution, human beings can't fly either.

You can't prove a negative. The onus is on you to provide evidence for the claim that biological sex in humans is changeable.

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 16:57

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:54

So next time you cross the Atlantic you'll walk on the water, will you?

I will sit in a metal tube with big engines attached to it.

Ideally at the end where the champagne is served at the bar.

Are you the kid that just got expelled from school for taking magic mushrooms by any chance?

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:57

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 16:51

Biological sex is biological sex regardless of any linguistic gymnastics undertaken to change the words we use to describe it.

No one can change sex but feel free to provide just one example if someone who has.

People can’t fly btw. This shouldn’t be news.

Can anyone defend this claim without resorting to circular reasoning?

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:55

JanesLittleGirl · 13/10/2025 16:53

But humans can't fly. They can, however, ride in flying machines.

And the difference is...

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:54

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 16:51

Biological sex is biological sex regardless of any linguistic gymnastics undertaken to change the words we use to describe it.

No one can change sex but feel free to provide just one example if someone who has.

People can’t fly btw. This shouldn’t be news.

So next time you cross the Atlantic you'll walk on the water, will you?

JanesLittleGirl · 13/10/2025 16:53

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:45

I'm just waiting for someone to provide evidence for the claim that biological sex is unchangeable. It obviously depends on how one defines biological sex, which involves a political choice.

And by the way, according to millions of years of evolution, human beings can't fly either.

But humans can't fly. They can, however, ride in flying machines.

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 16:51

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:45

I'm just waiting for someone to provide evidence for the claim that biological sex is unchangeable. It obviously depends on how one defines biological sex, which involves a political choice.

And by the way, according to millions of years of evolution, human beings can't fly either.

Biological sex is biological sex regardless of any linguistic gymnastics undertaken to change the words we use to describe it.

No one can change sex but feel free to provide just one example if someone who has.

People can’t fly btw. This shouldn’t be news.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:47

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 16:40

They might be called that, colloquially, but they do not actually change anyone's sex, which is impossible.

Which is just the sort of circular reasoning I'm trying to get past.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 16:40

They might be called that, colloquially, but they do not actually change anyone's sex, which is impossible.

I'm just waiting for someone to provide evidence for the claim that biological sex is unchangeable. It obviously depends on how one defines biological sex, which involves a political choice.

And by the way, according to millions of years of evolution, human beings can't fly either.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 16:40

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:18

Sex change surgeries are a recent innovation. So yes, apart from that.

They might be called that, colloquially, but they do not actually change anyone's sex, which is impossible.

Tiredofwhataboutery · 13/10/2025 16:32

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 15:33

All other issues aside, what is the evidential basis for claiming that biological sex is unchangeable?

Edited

Well we know that it’s not for certain species. Obviously if you are a clownfish, barramundi, frog etc, then you might be capable of changing sex. We know humans don’t change sex because of science.

WhereYouLeftIt · 13/10/2025 16:30

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:18

Sex change surgeries are a recent innovation. So yes, apart from that.

Except, of course, these surgeries do not CHANGE sex, they merely try to SIMULATE THE APPEARANCE of the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex. But the patient remains the sex they were at conception.

Is there a reason you resurrected a zombie thread, @Cassandrazone? Didn't have the confidence to start a new thread with your comment "All other issues aside, what is the evidential basis for claiming that biological sex is unchangeable?". (In other news, the Pope is Catholic and bears do indeed shit in the woods.)

JanesLittleGirl · 13/10/2025 16:25

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:18

Sex change surgeries are a recent innovation. So yes, apart from that.

Are you suggesting that extreme body modification to create a poor facsimile of the opposite sex actually changes somebody's sex? Seriously?

BTW, did you notice that this thread hadn't been posted on for 9 months before you dragged it back from the dead?

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 16:18

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 15:55

Apart from hundreds of millions of years of mammalian evolution, you mean?

Sex change surgeries are a recent innovation. So yes, apart from that.

Tiredofwhataboutery · 13/10/2025 16:14

I feel like we need to start using Tif, trans identifying female rather than trans man but of course she should be in the female estate. It’s like locking a chicken up with a bunch of foxes otherwise .

WeNeedToTalkAboutIT · 13/10/2025 16:07

I wonder how many transmen there are who are in prison and desperately want to be in the male estate.

Can't help but think it's less than the number of transwomen desperate to get into the female estate.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 15:55

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 15:33

All other issues aside, what is the evidential basis for claiming that biological sex is unchangeable?

Edited

Apart from hundreds of millions of years of mammalian evolution, you mean?

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 15:33

All other issues aside, what is the evidential basis for claiming that biological sex is unchangeable?

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 18/01/2025 21:05

lcakethereforeIam · 18/01/2025 20:07

The pettiness is mostly on the part of the prison authorities. Seems a strange hill to die on considering the genuine problems in prisons. Nothing in the article said the tm were ND, if they aren't then they're being petty. Although I've seen loads of men who are clean shaven and/or have long hair. Trans as stereotypes strikes again.

My point is that it's disproportionately likely that any TM in prison is autistic, not that the ones in this article definitely are.

Many autistic women aren't diagnosed until adulthood, if ever, so absence of a statement that someone is autistic doesn't prove neurotypicity.