Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's jail campaigners demand transmen offenders should be kept in female prisons *Title edited at OP's request*

241 replies

IwantToRetire · 27/09/2024 01:29

Women's jail campaigners are demanding that the growing number of trans male offenders should be kept in female jails.

Dr Kate Coleman, of Keep Prisons Single Sex, said that the instances of women identifying as men mid-sentence is a “growing problem”.

But she believes that such prisoners should be treated as women - and that moving them to men’s prisons or a special “trans unit” would be misguided and dangerous.

“Whilst the focus, rightly in my view, has been on the risks that males who identify as transgender pose to women in prison, the challenges of adequately and appropriately meeting the needs of females who identify as transgender must be addressed.

“These needs must be met within the female estate.

“I understand that females who identify as men are difficult to manage.

“But there is no quandary about where to house her. She is female and belongs in the female estate. She must be managed in a way that is continuous with the way in which all other female prisoners are managed. Housing her in the male estate is not even a question that should be asked.

“This is for her own safety and for her own benefit as it is in the female estate that she will be able to access the services and programmes that are necessary for her to progress.”

NB Only extracts, NOT the whole article which can be read in full at https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/womens-jail-campaigners-demand-trans-33750904

Women's jail campaigners demand trans men should be kept in female prisons

Keep Prisons Single Sex claims there are more and more women self identifying as men in women's jails - but male estate would be a danger to them

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/womens-jail-campaigners-demand-trans-33750904

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:54

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:52

And you would know this how?

Is that a serious question?

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:52

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:46

What does this have to do with trans people, who aren't ambiguous at all?

And you would know this how?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:50

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:50

Here we go. The same circular reasoning again. Sex is immutable because it is, because it's impossible that it isn't. because the gender police keep saying so, yada yada.

How can I be the gender police when I don't believe in gender?

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 22:50

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:28

This is just playing with words. All sex determination requires a decision to be made by the attending physician -- whether you like it or not, that's the way it is.

It’s not playing with words - I’m telling you what happens. I doubt you have any children otherwise you might understand the process a bit better.

Incidentally, are you saying that if there is no attending physician, the baby remains without a sex?

I bet you’re too young to have heard about John Wayne Bobbitt as well. Was he a woman while his penis was detached from his body?

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:50

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:47

It is determined wholly by what type of reproductive system you have.

Here we go. The same circular reasoning again. Sex is immutable because it is, because it's impossible that it isn't. because the gender police keep saying so, yada yada.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:48

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:47

I agree. But I don't think it's me who is being offensive.

No, trans activists never do give any thought to how many people they might be offending with their dreadful ideology.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:47

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:41

No, you don't need to explain.

We all know why you're doing it.

It's very boring and very offensive to people who actually have DSDs.

I agree. But I don't think it's me who is being offensive.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:47

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:45

A lot of humans don't. Or are you suggesting sex is determined wholly by fertility?

It is determined wholly by what type of reproductive system you have.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:46

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:44

The fact that there are any ambiguous cases at all shows that any definition involves ambiguous boundary cases.

What does this have to do with trans people, who aren't ambiguous at all?

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:45

ArabellaScott · 13/10/2025 22:42

Cassandra, how do humans reproduce?

A lot of humans don't. Or are you suggesting sex is determined wholly by fertility?

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:44

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:37

What part are you struggling with, exactly?

They see a penis, they observe that the baby is a boy. It's not complicated. There is no decision to be made.

The number of babies with ambiguous genitalia is so small that most obstetricians and midwives will never see one in their career.

The fact that there are any ambiguous cases at all shows that any definition involves ambiguous boundary cases.

ArabellaScott · 13/10/2025 22:42

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:24

So how do you define biological sex? And on what basis do you claim that everyone else ought to agree with your definition?

Still no-one seems to be able to answer this question.

Cassandra, how do humans reproduce?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:41

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:39

Do I really need to explain that? Or is this just another red herring?

I think I'll make my own decision on that one.

No, you don't need to explain.

We all know why you're doing it.

It's very boring and very offensive to people who actually have DSDs.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:39

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:35

Is there any particular reason why you're talking about this on a thread which is about which jail trans prisoners should be housed in?

Do I really need to explain that? Or is this just another red herring?

I think I'll make my own decision on that one.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:37

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:35

I know this is the current orthodoxy, but it makes no sense. At the very least, it raises the question of how one can know when the assignment is just an observation, and when it is something more intrusive.

What part are you struggling with, exactly?

They see a penis, they observe that the baby is a boy. It's not complicated. There is no decision to be made.

The number of babies with ambiguous genitalia is so small that most obstetricians and midwives will never see one in their career.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:36

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:27

By eliminating all definitions which have anything to do with gender feels.

All those remaining, i.e. the ones based in actual science, are consistent with each other.

No, they aren't. That is a straightforward untruth.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:35

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:32

Then it doesn't sound nd like you know much about intersex conditions, because it is not the uncertainty which creates problems, but the social need to create confirmative sex categories. Which is why an enlarged clitoris is in danger of being surgically mutilated to prevent it looking too much like a penis.

It afraid I think your taking offense is just political posturing.

Is there any particular reason why you're talking about this on a thread which is about which jail trans prisoners should be housed in?

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:35

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:29

Unless a baby has a very rare DSD, they're not making a decision. They're simply saying what they see.

I know this is the current orthodoxy, but it makes no sense. At the very least, it raises the question of how one can know when the assignment is just an observation, and when it is something more intrusive.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:32

JanesLittleGirl · 13/10/2025 22:27

I find this argument very offensive on behalf of the very small number of people who are actually born with a DSD that leaves them in a pool of uncertainty. Can we agree that it unbelievable to even consider exploiting them to advance any argument about whether people can or cannot change sex?

Then it doesn't sound nd like you know much about intersex conditions, because it is not the uncertainty which creates problems, but the social need to create confirmative sex categories. Which is why an enlarged clitoris is in danger of being surgically mutilated to prevent it looking too much like a penis.

It afraid I think your taking offense is just political posturing.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:29

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:28

This is just playing with words. All sex determination requires a decision to be made by the attending physician -- whether you like it or not, that's the way it is.

Unless a baby has a very rare DSD, they're not making a decision. They're simply saying what they see.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:28

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 22:13

No we don’t. My children had a sex from the moment of conception. This sex was observed both from scans and a chromosome test. Nobody ‘assigned’ anything.

This is just playing with words. All sex determination requires a decision to be made by the attending physician -- whether you like it or not, that's the way it is.

JanesLittleGirl · 13/10/2025 22:27

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 21:46

Because there are multiple definitions and they are all inconsistent. But you really don't want to understand that, do you?

I find this argument very offensive on behalf of the very small number of people who are actually born with a DSD that leaves them in a pool of uncertainty. Can we agree that it unbelievable to even consider exploiting them to advance any argument about whether people can or cannot change sex?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:27

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:25

So how do you determine what is the correct definition?

By eliminating all definitions which have anything to do with gender feels.

All those remaining, i.e. the ones based in actual science, are consistent with each other.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/10/2025 22:26

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:24

So how do you define biological sex? And on what basis do you claim that everyone else ought to agree with your definition?

Still no-one seems to be able to answer this question.

It's about whether you have the kind of reproductive system for (a) bearing or (b) begetting, offspring.

The same as in all other mammal species.

Cassandrazone · 13/10/2025 22:25

BundleBoogie · 13/10/2025 22:18

You have got very very confused. Our genitalia is a result of our sex, it does not define our sex.

In the same way that putting bleach on my hair does not make me a natural blonde, cutting off a man’s penis does not make him a woman. Think John Wayne Bobbitt- he did not become a woman for the short time that Loretta had possession of his penis.

Biological sex is not immutable by any definition unless you have started making up incorrect definitions.

It’s not a tricky concept really.

So how do you determine what is the correct definition?