Elon Musk is a twat

@MarieDeGournay
I don't want to go too off-topic, but with regards to batteries, I mean on an individual level they work for an acceptable time, and they are much better than they used to be, and as you said, old car batteries can be used for other functions. I read about a company that creates battery banks out of used ones from cars and home storage for solar power, and in this group setting, they will last another couple of years.

But the systemic problems of where you will get the resources from in the long run, and that they could still be even more efficient have not been solved yet. At the end of their life cycle, they still need better recycling broken down into individual metals, too.

The same problems exist for fossil-fuel powered cars, too - where do you get the fuel from, how do you properly recycle them - but because we've lived with these problems for such a long time, they don't really seem to be at the forefront anymore.

To loop this back to EM's technocratic approach, most of his solutions (AI, gigantic data centers, Neuralink, Robocars,...) require either vast amounts of energy or vast amounts of giving up your privacy - that includes the self-driving cars, too, as they often require cameras to navigate, so everyone is filmed involuntary.

The issues around sustainable travel etc makes me lament even more deeply the Greens' lurch into trans territory. There are so many half-truths and downright lies spread about EVs - a current one doing the rounds is 'Don't buy and EV because it will cost £20,000 to replace the battery!' Which is neither here nor there, because why would you need to replace the battery? They last for yonks, they can be tweaked and upgraded, and even when they are no longer suitable to power cars, they can still function as storage devices.

This is the kind of disinformation that a respected Green Party should be challenging, as well as the old chestnut that all EVs are expensive; but the concept of 'a respected Green Party' is on the compost heap of history😞

"There are still a lot of votes in not rushing to electric cars. As long as you are bothered with democracy. Which - being honest - isn't really compatible with dealing with climate change."

@SerendipityJane

I hope very much that democracy and dealing with climate change are not mutually exclusive. There are also often many solutions to one problem, instead of only one.
Before the Greens went off the rails in various countries, there was huge support there for adding filters to power plant chimneys and reducing the amount of nuclear plants. This received another push after Fukushima (remember, anyone?) Actually after Fukushima, the Green party in Germany received their biggest growth in votes.
A lot of changes were made within democratic rules. If we didn't have all the environmental laws on keeping air and water clean(er), the current situation would be much worse and people would complain about the smog and impurity of water (as they are currently doing regarding poisoned water from fracking in various US states).

What is saved in energy costs by availability of cheap energy is added in environmental costs and health malaises of the individual and costs for society. You only get one or the other.

But people in bad economic or social situations will chose the immediate future over long-term future. This is certainly a topic for democratic discussions. I don't think it requires a dictator.

An electric car is just one possible solution to the problem of transport. Other options could be made available, including better public transport (and affordable tickets) and for rural-ish areas taxis / buses on demand, which are part of the public transport system and the tariffs. There are already experimental set-ups for this, but they are probably not viable for very rural areas. All of these require subsidies anyways.
The battery problem for electric energy is still very much on the beginner's level and requires enormous amounts of rare metals, though, so people invest in this concept and it is unknown for how long that will work.

However, the right-wing parties could combine the idea of ("mini") nuclear reactors with electric cars, so there's (on the surface) "clean and cheap energy", which they are touting so much. It would play well together with the electricity needed for data centers and computing.

Bill Gates commented on his buddy Elon today, but I think he has his own interests, too, including getting money for his health projects (vs. RFK jr).
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/jan/27/bill-gates-elon-musk-far-right

'Ghastly cardboard straws'--- you mean like the way straws always used to be before they were changed to indestructible and polluting plastic straws? Funny how humanity managed perfectly well with 'cardboard straws'. It really is an odd issue to highlight - a bit like all those end-of-the-world over-reactions to <gasp> tethered bottle-tops, which look extremely silly now.

And nobody is 'forcing' anybody to use any kind of straws. Most people can just drink directly out of drinking vessels; anybody with a disability who really needs to use a straw to drink makes sure they have an appropriate kind of drinking straw with them, they're not going to leave being able to drink to the mercy of what kind of straws may or may not be randomly available.

If you don't want an EV, don't get one. If you don't like cardboard straws, don't use them. If you like democracy, protect it. If you're proud of your Tufty Badge, wear it. If you don't like salt in your porridge... you get my drift!
Cardboard straws and EVs are straws and cars.

I'm a little more inclined to think it wasn't meant as a Nazi salute than it was, but that leaves a lot of room for ambiguity, but I don't have much patience for people who say it "obviously" was and anyone who disagrees is nazi-adjacent or something like that. To me, it seems that they are very much seeing what they already had determined is the case.

I am not sure what Musk thinks about race issues, though I suspect he has ideas about eugenics I wouldn't be happy with given his transhumanist leanings. Eugenics don't have to manifest through a racial lens, however.

He is an American citizen though so being involved in American politics isn't any more appropriate than for any other immigrant citizen.

Definatly agree with the person up thread who said his political ideology is all over the place though I think you could pull a few joined up threads from it all. I don't think he'll keep it together with the Trump people long term.

@SerendipityJane
for example the case of the electric car: the right-wing parties and some of the conservatives are against phasing out traditional fuel cars in the next years. The e-car infrastructure is heavily subsidized as it is a new technology (that in itself is often necessary, so not a problem per se). There are tax breaks and subsidized loading infrastructure and for many years you got some kind of financial bonus for buying an electric car.
Since the right-wing party is mostly denying (man-made) climate change, there is no case for electric cars or hydrogen infrastructure or anything. Already when the current governing coalition reduced (or cut, I'm not sure) the bonus for e-cars, their market share went down.

If there are more cuts, even without the AfD in goverment but because of their negotiating power in parliament, and the electric cars never get off the ground into the mass market, it would hurt EMs business interests very much and he can close down his factory. I don't know how he can square that.

Actually it's the same in the US, on a bigger scale, so it probably won't be long until the fights break out.

@MarieDeGournay
Elon is not just poking in UK politics, but also Germany (election next month), as @delphin showed, and he will probably take part in more debates as the time goes on. He said it was to protect his business interests - there is a Tesla factory in Germany and he bought a couple engineering/tech companies whose work is relevant for Tesla and other main outputs.

But again he behaves as if it was a completely new idea that business owners influence politics. Of course they do; all the PR companies lobbying the EU on behalf of all kinds of firms, and decrying their laws, and every country has national organizations of business owners who are heard in the law-making processes. EM posing as if he is the first business owner to "protect his interests" is a bit ridiculous.
And usually they don't wade in like that, clearly favouring this one party AfD (except for Mueller Yoghurt, if you like to eat these, their owner donates to the AfD).
https://www.rnd.de/politik/afd-weidel-kann-sich-muellermilch-chef-in-regierung-vorstellen-OM2OQAUYVFISLBV56T5IKFDUJY.html

Anyway, that is why I said the context makes a difference; the photo and Elon's connection to the AfD seem to send a message, as in, look, I got the crazy person elected president, now I'll support you, too.

I agree with others in that two erratic people like Musk and Trump will probably fall out with each other sooner or later, though. They both are not reliable and can pivot in seconds. And I assume that when the AfD suggests laws that are against his interests, he'll turn against them in seconds, too.

Yeah I've seen it now and I'm not sure what the fuck he was doing but that definitely looked like what it looked like.

Thanks for the link to the article, ConstructionTime.

• *I've often wondered why Musk being a South African poking around in US politics has not been more highlighted and criticised; a white South African furthermore, but strictly speaking that shouldn't be relevant.

Even more startling is this, from the Guardian article:

there is fodder from Musk’s early life with a neo-Nazi grandfather who moved from Canada to South Africa because he liked the idea of apartheid through his high school education in a system infused with the ideology of white supremacy.

I always assumed Musk was just another white South African, I was completely unaware about his family history, which definitely puts a different slant on his ideas and behaviour. Having a neo-Nazi grandfather should make him very careful about how he waves at people...

I was wondering about the accounts of JKR and Julie Bindel making fun of people thinking it's the nazi reference.
I'm skeptical, too, about saying, well Elon is an excitable guy, it was just out of happiness.
What matters here is context. The whole political background, the story, the connections they have, the supporters they have, the pardon for the Oath Keepers and others, his influence as a person....

I think saying he did it in a way he has plausible deniability is quite correct. That way, no-one can pin him down on it but it's still a sign and the photo is already as iconic as the one of injured Trump after the attack (side note: Guardian lamenting Trump was elected but also Guardian being one of the news sites who published the photographer's account as background story and ran the photo multiple times - this photo was very important in the elections and for the perception of people).

Comparing to photos from the ballet or other politicans using their left hand and so on is absolutely not the same.

Additionally I think Musik is doing some pick'n'mix: Libertarianism, technology as a saviour, supporting right-wing movements, intense focus on cost-saving (there were multiple reports on how he ran his companies to the detriment of the health of employees), freedom of speech unless it is against him or his interests, when he turns around and trolls and attacks people relentlessly (also wanting to forbid the account who tracked his flight movements), the image of the manic inventor, focus on the breeding movement (more children = more worker bees)...

There is probably not a pattern of the past that he copies 1:1, it's a bit of everything.

His support of specialist immigrant visas against Trump likely does not mean he supports immigration or human rights. He and the other tech bros probably just don't want to lose some educated specialists which are important for their businesses, it's only about their own interest.

Today I saw an article which describes some of his and Peter Thiel's (PayPal and libertarian billionaire) upbringing in South Africa and their connections:
www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/26/elon-musk-peter-thiel-apartheid-south-africa

@SerendipityJane that’s a powerful quote! Do you know the source, please? (Or is it your own?)

Oh do give over. The US voted in Trump. I'm British and therefore wasn't invited to the tea party.
If you're upset about Trump and his pals being in power, fair enough. I'm not thrilled either.
But here we are, go find someone who voted for him to have a go at?

If you're having trouble knowing how to assess a fascist in government making a fascist salute as the government he's part of takes power and pardons people who attempted a violent coup, it's not because you're analytical. Anyway, I'm not going back and forth with any of you. Your choices are yours to live with.

WaitingForTheDoubleDecker Your willingness to seek comforting lies to deny the evidence of your own eyes is either you seeking to soothe your own conscience because you stand adjacent to the policies of a US administration which is going to be brazenly far right, or because you're too cowardly or apathetic to call it what everyone knows what it is..

Thanks for that.
I have a real dilemma now: am I standing 'adjacent to the policies of a US administration which is going to be brazenly far right', or am I ' too cowardly or apathetic to call it what everyone knows what it is'?🤔

Or maybe I'm just being my usual analytical, sceptical, critical self...

Do the people pretzelling themselves up to explain away a very clear fascist salute think that fascists are only fascists if they carry Mein Kampf in their top pocket? You know fascism isn't Hitler cosplay, right? Your willingness to seek comforting lies to deny the evidence of your own eyes is either you seeking to soothe your own conscience because you stand adjacent to the policies of a US administration which is going to be brazenly far right, or because you're too cowardly or apathetic to call it what everyone knows what it is, which is exactly how fascists cement power unopposed.
Wake the fuck up, because right now it looks like a lot of you sold your souls because the devil said he'd give you a law saying 'only two sexes'.

Gosh, there's blast from the past! I know two ex Paras who were invited to join his community... They stayed for a couple of weeks, then ran for the hills.

He used to try to recruit lots of ex servicemen from the UK and USA, apparently.

Rode round on his horse most of the time, missed on brandy before noon and often fell off.

Musk's not a true Nazi, more Nazi-adjacent, growing up in apartheid South Africa probably didn't colour (if that's the right word) his thinking (I bet like the liberal white characters in those Hollywood films about black civil rights he'd have been able to see through the injustice of the pervasive racist culture in which he grew up), and his support for Tommy Robinson, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, (sorry did I just dead name him?) could be forgiven as ignorance of British politics, and the level of right wing thuggery from which even Farage and Reform want to distance themselves. We should not take so seriously the late night posts from his weed-addled brain.

What Trump is doing bears very close watching. I’m still undecided about Musk. I would be surprised if he entertains Trump long, and I think he’s a one issue man really. I think he will fall out over all the other issues eventually.

I liked it and don’t remember seeing it before. Interesting what I notice second time around 🤣

Life is increasingly like Monty Python to be honest.