"Men's clothes"

Ah, pockets and their absence. Normal apparel for both sexes in Fiji is a kilt-like long skirt. This very attractive garment is called a sulu, for both sexes. I thought you might like to know that a man's sulu is called "sulu with pockets" 🤔

Sorry @childofthe607080s - my clumsy phrasing. By "gender issues" I was talking about non-binary and non-GRC trans and clothes. I absolutely abhor the actions you mention but they're not really relevant in a discussion entitled "Men's clothes" and you know they're not what I was referring to.
As for "men and women have different body shapes", I'm sure you're aware that women have a variety of body shapes (5 at a simple level) and that not all clothes marketed for women fit all women well. Since very few companies market skirts and/or dresses for men (some of the designers that do charge eye-watering prices!) we make do with what we can find. As you say, in anything with sleeves they're likely to be too short, and usually the shoulders in a dress will be too narrow and/or the hips too wide, but I'm sure some of you ladies have the same problems.

Is that not exactly what I'm saying?

Men can wear whatever they like. They are still men. As soon as they put the clothes on they are men's clothes.

The line is the point where the clothes are no longer just worn as clothes but become signifiers for that man of something (that man has) associated with actual womanhood, the clothes becoming for him the expression of his beliefs about how women live, think, feel or dress, and the wearing of them the manifestation of a belief that through adopting the outward cultural symbols of "women" he can somehow also embody, express or possess that (projected) womanhood.

In short: along as a man in dress accepts he is a man and his wearing of said dress has nothing to do with actual women, it's all good. If he thinks it's anything more than that we are not good because he is by definition projecting his own reductive ideas about women onto us and that is not ok.

@justsomechap
i actually find it sad that you think gender issues ( such as rape and sexual abuse, belittling of women , men abandoning families? ) would go away if all clothing was less gender/ sex specific - such a simple fix would be lovely though

and how would that work? Seeing as men and women have different body shapes ? Mens arms are longer for example even if the woman is the same height as the man - would men really want slightly short sleeves in their shirts ?

It seems that only men "cross the line". If a women wears men's clothes, nothing is said because she has the right to express herself as she chooses.
Although there arn't any men's clothes anymore just unisex and women"s clothes.
What about women who wear cute clothes worn by prepubescent girls?
Surly anyone can wear what they want, in the name of equality?

It's interesting that the few comments on here by men are mostly ignored.
As for the comment that there's more choice in "Men's clothes" than "women's clothes" - really? Haven't you seen the difference in size of the mens and womens sections of most clothing stores?
I think the 2 images in the original diagram are unhelpful as the clothes on the left are now considered "unisex" and the clothes on the right are a poor combination. It's a bit staggering how judgemental women are about clothing choices though!
Full disclosure - I'm a bloke who likes to wear skirts especially when it's hot as I like the comfort, the air-flow and the choice. I mostly still choose "boring bloke colours" though like blue and grey/black, and will generally wear them with a t-shirt or normal shirt. I can't help thinking a lot of the gender issues we have today would go away if people in general (both men and women) tolerated boys/men wearing what they choose. I think that, to some extent, men who want to wear a skirt/dress feel that they have to attempt to "pass" in order not to be ridiculed or beaten up.
However, I'm probably wasting my time as doubtless this post will be ignored too!

Men wearing dresses because they like the look of men in dresses or even just the airflow round the knees on a hot day - absolutely fine. Men wearing dresses because they don't think clothing should be gendered and want to challenge that by being a man in supposedly "female" clothes? Go for it.

My line is crossed when a man is wearing "female" clothes because he believes something about that experience means he is experiencing or expressing something other than being a man who happens to be wearing supposedly "female" clothes.

Perhaps not offended, but I would do a double take if I saw a grown adult of either sex wearing what my 5 year old would assemble as an outfit if I let my attention slip of a morning

It's similar to the way a girl being a tomboy is tolerated, but a boy being a 'cissy' is seen as negative - it's OK for a girl to try to take on stereotypically male behaviours, but demeaning for a boy to act like a girl.

There are of course many cultures around the world where men wear skirts - like a lot of gender stereotypes, this one varies with time and geography.
So a man in a skirt has lots of different possible 'readings', depending on context.
Outside of Scotland, I'd say a man wearing a skirt in the UK will be read as deliberately appropriating women's dress for some reason, rather than a simple wardrobe choice.

I fully believe that the only reason "men's clothes" became unisex over time while women's clothes haven't is misogyny. Women wearing "men's clothes" was seen as aspirational, even if men didn't always like women trying to "rise above their station", but a man wearing "women's clothes" is seen as degrading. I love that men's skirts and dresses are becoming more of a thing, but it's still rare and often made fun of. So many men still view "women's" interests as lesser- music women like, books women like, clothes women like, all of it- if I think about it too hard I just find the whole thing feels insurmountable.

Men in my own family have been nothing short of disgusted by men in skirts- Ncuti Gatwa in Doctor Who, specifically- but wouldn't even care to think about a women in tailored trousers or jeans. The double-standard is ridiculous.

So does mine.
<Smug>

I always buy men's running shoes - they are a wider fit and also have a higher bodyweight maximum so they work better for me.

Shoes designed for women rarely fit my hobbit hooves comfortably but I do sometimes conform for 'special' outfits ie. weddings/parties and regret it for days later.

I’m wearing a skirt with pockets right now.

Yeah, I’m showing off.

I often look at clothes and think, ooh, like that... Oh bugger, it's menswear!

Because most men's clothes don't fit me, but I like the practical designs, the colours and the bloody pockets. For years, as a student, I wore a men's denim jacket. I still have men's jumpers included in my winter stash.

Today, however, I'm wearing a skirt... Not sure what my clothing choices say about my gender identity. Other than that I don't give a shit.

I think there's a time and a place for flashing the flesh.
On a windy racecourse or new year's eve in the northern hemisphere I tend to see it as style over practicality. I'll be the woman in the crowd handing out thermal vests and warm cardigans.

I guess the left is "acceptable" mens clothes as its the default casual wear for both male and female. It is quite striking a great many are more pro choice for female clothing eg. its her business, who are we to judge, showing some flesh isn't offensive, judge the woman not her appearance etc. Its like we want stricter rules for men in appearance and wider social codes. I can see why some men pick up on this and rebel against the more limited choices. Short of clear fetish clothing or imitating children, though still probably less revulsion for females.

Its not inconceivable that skirts and dresses could be normalised for men and then it would be clear no man is getting a thrill from wearing them, but a long way off.

Round here their tops end at the knee and they have trousers underneath, like salwar kameez. In the middle eastern states I've seen men in floor length robes.

I mentioned lab coats upthread and just remembered an observation we had at work.

The womens' labcoats have wrist cuffs (very practical) but no back vent (very inpractical as the front comes undone whenever you crouch down) and optional top pockets ( they're horribly impractical even if you have a small bust).

The mens' labcoats have no wrist cuffs (very impractical) but have a back vent so are easier to move around in.

Howie coats are unisex I think, though they possibly popper from different sides for men and women.

I was in the supermarket yesterday and there were quite a lot of men and boys who presumably had recently come from Mosque wearing traditional Islamic dress, which is essentially a full length dress.

They did not seem to have any issues and I'm fairly certain they knew they were men.

I don't think the danger to men who are wearing skirts (that are not kilts) and dresses come from women - it comes from a small group of men.

Some men are very territorial about manliness - even certain colours are suspect, as is the wearing of particular jewellery (although earrings are okay)

This is a man problem for men to solve. They need to accept men who like wearing skirts and dresses are part of the male tribe and ensure their safety in their same sex spaces.

Men who like wearing makeup, skirts, dresses, wigs etc can then be safe in their appropriate space and stay out of ours.

My boys do not know how to tie a tie as well as I do, it's not as universally worn now. I also know how to tie a proper bow tie, though I can't practise it on my thigh these days.😫

But they’re unlikely to be ‘men’s clothes’ if the wearer is a woman because they wouldn’t fit. We’re different shapes. They mean practical clothes worn by both sexes.

This really depends. I have a lot of clothes that were marketed for men.

I wear only men's (or 'unisex') tshirts, which fit me much better than 'women's.). Ones 'for women' are typically tight across the shoulders, too tight on the armpits and too short overall. This is all before design choices that don't work for me either like cap sleeves, elastane and scoop necks rather than crew being much more prevalent in women's tshirts.

I also wear only men's trousers (this is more for pockets and comfort) and men's socks, also wear men's shoes. I'm still a woman.

Where the problem comes in is smarter shirts. The women's are almost always too narrow on the shoulders for me (which is in addition a measurement that hardly any online retailer gives). Men's, if they fit well on the bust, are too tight on the hips, while they bunch up at the waist. This can be altered to fit, but then only for wearing it tucked in. Getting a shirt in a larger size and having it resized has worked for me in the past (this wasn't a formal shirt though), but another was completely screwed up at the alterations place, so it's not all that easy.

so maybe the ..er..pendulum is swinging back to peacockery.

That's how fashion works isn't it? Try to find something that's new (or hasn't been seen in youthful memory) and market it like buggery. (which does actually seem to marketed to the latest generation online🤔)

I wouldn't be surprised if more school girls wore ties than adult men. The tie is a weird garment in the 21st century. Written more by children than by adults, yet seen as the epitome of smart dressing for men.