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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Save female sports evidence thread

133 replies

Helleofabore · 14/08/2024 14:13

I am conscious that the Break it Down for me thread is nearly full. I am therefore hoping that this thread can be an archive thread just for the sports evidence that we can all access and refer to. Now that MNHQ has given us the option for saving threads so we can find them easily, I figure it is a good time.

Please post studies, papers, media articles that pull together references, or informative articles, tweets, videos. Just on sport, the latest policies around sport.

I don't want to be the thread police, but ask that we keep this free of discussion. Can I ask that if you want to discuss something you see here, you start a thread to do so?

Because I would like this to be just information stashed so that people can find the links easily so they also know where to start. And getting into discussion on this thread will mean it will fill up.

Thanks.

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Helleofabore · 14/08/2024 14:39

SEX MATTERS MEDIA BRIEFING PARIS OLYMPIC 2024 ABOUT MALE ATHLETES WITH TESTOSTERONE ADVANTAGE

Here is an informative Media briefing from Sex Matters including Developmental Biologist Professor/Dr Emma Hilton, plus the real life experience of competing with people with testosterone derived advantages, Olympians Mara Yamauchi and Sharron Davies.

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https://youtu.be/uQpX9ubrGZE

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Helleofabore · 14/08/2024 14:37

XY ATHLETES WITH TESTES: INFORMATION FROM CAROLE HOOVEN

Thread starts here there are charts linked in one of the tweets below:

First: People living with DSDs should be treated with compassion and understanding, and receive any heath care they need. These can be challenging conditions for individuals and their families. But when male athletes have DSDs that give them an advantage over females, and they compete in the female category, this raises concerns about safety and fairness, and forces discussion of the relevant physical traits.

Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes (usually internal), XY sex chromosomes, male-typical levels of testosterone, and functional androgen receptors are often described as females with "hyperandrogenism," i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They experience physical benefits of this high testosterone during puberty, which translate into athletic advantages over females. The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male.

These individuals are usually born with female-appearing genitalia, which can lead to being sexed as female. Here's why. 5-ARD is caused by a mutation in the gene that codes for the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which converts testosterone into a more potent androgen, DHT. This androgen interacts with the androgen receptor, like testosterone, and is necessary for the typical development of male external genitalia (penis and scrotum) and the prostate. Without DHT, female-typical external genitalia develop. At the end of this monster post is a graphic of the relevant steroid production pathway, from my book T: The story of Testosterone.

DHT is also responsible for male-pattern baldness and dark, coarse facial hair, which is why people with the condition have smooth skin that can give a feminine appearance.

The “decision makers” are aware that athletes with 5-ARD are male, and that they experience the benefits of male puberty. The requirement to reduce their testosterone to typical female levels isn’t discriminatory, since these are males who are asking to compete in the female category. But more significantly, all the relevant scientific evidence shows that reducing male T in adulthood does not undo the physical benefits of male puberty.

Here's more detail about T, DHT, and male advantage in strength and speed.

I've been asked if men with the DSD 5-ARD (in which ppl cannot convert testosterone into the more potent androgen DHT) experience the typical benefits of male puberty, that would give them an advantage in strength and speed relative to women. This is relevant to questions about whether male athletes with 5-ARD should be allowed to compete in the female category. This is an excellent question, because it could be the case that DHT is necessary for the development and maintenance of male-typical muscle, lean body mass and strength. If that were the case, then people with 5-ARD might not have a typical male advantage, because the lack of DHT would perhaps lead to a more feminine pattern of fat, lean body mass and strength. I've wondered about this myself and have looked into the evidence.

Perhaps the top researcher in this area, Shalendar Bhasin, who is scrupulous in his methods, has examined this very question. The answer appears to be: no, testosterone does not need to be converted to DHT to exert its typical anabolic effects. These findings are reported in his 2012 study, "Effect of Testosterone Supplementation With and Without a Dual 5α-Reductase Inhibitor on Fat-Free Mass in Men With Suppressed Testosterone Production, A Randomized Controlled Trial." (It is linked to below—and since it's paywalled, I've included the graphs that show comparisons between the placebo and DHT— inhibited conditions, with no difference on the various outcomes.)

For more detail, the investigators wanted to examine the effects of suppressing DHT on muscle mass, strength, and sexual function. This important because one of the treatments for benign prostatic hyperplasia and male-pattern baldness is to suppress DHT, but clinicians have been concerned about effects on other outcomes that affect health and quality of life. Participants (healthy men, 18 to 50, with normal T levels) had their T blocked, and were given graded doses of T, along with either placebo or a drug that blocked the conversion of T to DHT. So both groups had T, but only one, the placebo group, also had DHT. After 20 weeks of treatment, changes in lean body mass, muscle, and strength were assessed. There were no significant difference between the placebo and DHT-blocked groups in these outcomes.

For LOTS more detail, here's the relevant text from the results. Please don't ask me questions about the study. Just look at the abstract and results which you can find by Googling. The main point is that while there are predicted effects of the different doses of T received, there were no differences in the outcomes according to whether they had DHT blocked (with dutasteride) or not (placebo). "Fat-Free Mass Fat-free mass and lean body mass increased in a dose-dependent manner in the placebo and dutasteride [THIS IS THE DRUG THAT BLOCKS CONVERSION OF T TO DHT] groups (Figure 2).

The changes in fat-free mass were related to testosterone dose and changes in testosterone concentrations in the placebo and dutasteride groups but did not differ between groups; the dose-adjusted mean difference (placebo minus dutasteride) in fat-free mass was 0.50 kg (95% CI, −0.22 to 1.22 kg; P = .18). There was no significant interaction between testosterone dose and randomization to dutasteride or placebo, indicating a lack of evidence that the relationship of testosterone dose to change in fat-free mass differed between the dutasteride and placebo groups.

The model-based smoothed regression lines, obtained by generalized additive models, describing the relationship between changes in testosterone concentrations and changes in fat-free mass and lean body mass were similar in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Changes in fat mass were negatively related to testosterone dose and concentrations, but the relationship between change in fat mass and dose did not differ significantly between the placebo and dutasteride groups (P = .41; Figure 2)."

"Muscle strength Leg-press and chest-press strength increased dependently by dose in the placebo and dutasteride groups. Increases in leg-press and chest-press strength were greater with larger doses and higher concentrations of testosterone. These relationships did not differ between the placebo and dutasteride groups (Figure 2)."

Really interesting commentary from the authors on the role of DHT in adult men: "Why then did the steroid 5α-reductase system evolve for androgens? Forty-six XY males with steroid 5α-reductase deficiency exhibited ambiguous or female external genitalia at birth and poor prostate development, but underwent normal muscle and bone development during pubertal transition. The phenotype of these patients suggests that steroid 5α-reductase plays an essential role in the development of prostate and phallus by providing local amplification of an androgenic signal without systemic hyperandrogenemia during critical periods of sexual differentiation, illustrating nature's extraordinary ingenuity in creating mechanisms for tissue-selective amplification during development.

We speculate that in adult men, in whom this tissue-specific amplification is not essential because the circulating testosterone concentrations are substantially higher than those in the fetus, testosterone and DHT can interchangeably subserve many androgenic functions. When circulating testosterone concentrations are low, intraprostatic DHT formation may become important in maintaining prostate growth, thus buffering the effects of decreasing testosterone levels, which has been suggested by Marks et al.

Our data are consistent with studies that have reported no effects of 5α-reductase inhibitors on muscle or bone mass. Inferences from these trials are limited by the fact that administration of 5α-reductase inhibitors increases testosterone levels, rendering it difficult to ascribe the outcomes to differences in DHT levels alone. In our trial, inhibition of endogenous testosterone by administration of a gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist eliminated this problem. Additionally, the high-dose dutasteride regimen effectively inhibited both steroid 5α-reductase isoenzymes."

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819041282594873759

and the charts are posted incase they are lost in the future but are in this tweet.

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819046454922518835

Save female sports evidence thread
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Helleofabore · 14/08/2024 14:29

5ARD INFORMATION FROM CAROLE HOOVEN

This is from Carole Hooven (hoovlet on Twitter).

It touches on the hormone AMH which is the hormone that stops the production of the uterus and fallopian tubes. It is produced in the testes of male people. And as such there are no ovaries, because the body developed testes instead.

There is are male conditions where this hormone is not produced. In Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome, male people with this still develop as ‘typical male’ developmentally.

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819449064590582073?s=46&t=HTxp6zCd4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

The relevant parts of the tweet is below:

Males with 5-ARD do not have a uterus or other female internal structures, but they do have what looks like a vagina, so are often sexed as females. However they are males with normal testes, which produce typical male hormones. Those hormones, among other things, prevent the development of female internal reproductive structures (like the uterus and cervix).

In embryonic development, we all start out with two sets of primordial duct systems, one set that will develop into the male internal reproductive stuff (the Wolffian ducts, which become the epididymis, vas deferens and seminal vesicles), and another that develops into the female internal stuff (the Müllerian ducts, which become the upper part of the vagina, cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes, pic at the end).

In males, fetal testes don't only produce testosterone! They also make Anti-Mullerian Hormone (AMH), which is crucial for getting rid of the Mullerian ducts, and thus, ensuring that the eventual uterus, etc. don't develop. If there's no testes and no AMH, that female internal stuff will develop.

Males need high levels of T for male-typical development of all the male reproductive structures. Without T production and action, the external (penis and scrotum) and internal (described above) genitalia won't develop. But as I wrote in my monster tweet yesterday, T alone isn't enough for development of the penis and scrotum (and prostate): for that, T must be converted into DHT (a more potent androgen, production pathway below), and people with 5-ARD don't make the necessary enzyme to carry out that conversion. So they end up with what appears to be a vagina.

FYI, some males inherit a genetic mutation that means they can't produce AMH. They are typical males, but have a nonfunctional uterus and fallopian tubes inside their abdomen. The condition often not discovered until adulthood (it's called Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome). AMH is an important hormone for males, but hardly anyone even knows it exists.

Also, the testes generally don't descend into the scrotum before birth (as usual) without DHT, but they often do at puberty when testosterone levels reach high concentrations. So males with 5-ARD may be "sexed" as female, due to the female-appearing external genitalia.

But brain and the rest of the body are typically male. Most people with the condition will "transition" to living as a male once they realize they are male, and this often happens at puberty, when the testes descend and the body develops in a typically masculine way.

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Helleofabore · 14/08/2024 14:27

TESTOSTERONE LEVEL CHART - NORMAL FEMALE RANGE / PCOS RANGE / NORMAL MALE RANGE

USING DAVID HANDELSMAN INFORMATION INCLUDING THE LEVELS IOC SPECIFIED FOR TESTOSTERONE SUPPRESSION

This is the chart was made using information from the Handelsman et al 2018 paper below.

The 'Caster Semenya' line refers to what the IOC had specified that Semenya and others needed to suppress their testosterone levels down to, resulting in Semenya trying to overturn this at CAS.

Semenya was noted in that CAS case to have the difference in sex development categorised as 5-ARD and had testosterone levels of around 21 nmol/L.

The Hubbard line was the testosterone level that males with transgender identities had to suppress to for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.

This is tweet where you can find the chart.

https://x.com/rorybowman/status/1819232725175620084

This is the study

Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance

David J Handelsman, Angelica L Hirschberg, Stephane Bermon

Published: 13 July 2018

https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770?login=false

A poster once tried to say that Handelsman obviously supports testosterone reduction, however, this is untrue.

What is important to note here is that David Handelsman has since said this in 2022 on the SBS Insight episode after seeing further research.

Question: does testosterone suppression get rid of the natural advantage males have?

It is important to remember that what we are talking about here is the unfair advantage so the objective is to eliminate it not just reduce it. But complete testosterone suppression has now be shown in a number of studies to not to fully nullify the advantages in males, in physical advantages for up to three years.

Suppression of testosterone is partially effective. It won’t change bones. They remain longer and stronger. Haemoglobin will change, but the key things muscle, heart and lungs virtually don’t change. Or they change very little, maybe 10 - 20% reduction. But 80% of the male physical advantage remains . So it is virtually incomplete, and no where near completely reversing male unfair advantage.

More on testosterone suppression:

The key thing is whether the male physical advantage is removed over a certain time. And the answer is there is no duration which removes the unfair male physical advantage of male bodied athletes in female events. The data shows that you can get some reversal, but no where near complete and therefore there remains an unfair advantage.

Save female sports evidence thread
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StellaGreen · 14/08/2024 14:18

Does anyone have the male v female testosterone chart?

Helleofabore · 14/08/2024 14:17

Here is an interesting video led by Prof Jo Phoenix, with Dr Emma Hilton and Jon Pike.

OUGCRN Seminar : Sex, Gender, and Sport after Tokyo

As they point out the 69 kg male weightlifting champion at 164 cm can lift more weight and any female weightlifting champion. Even Tatiana Kashirina who is 108 kg an 177 cm tall. She goes through Hubbard's advantages.

An interesting seminar particularly for anyone who perhaps wants a summary of sex vs gender or a reminder.

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https://youtu.be/AVXBlg-AJK0

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Helleofabore · 14/08/2024 14:17

The USAF study. Again, one that people will often find referred to.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

Timothy A Roberts, Joshua Smalley, Dale Ahrendt

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

It is interesting reading as it also leaves the suggestion that even after 3 years advantage still exists.

And Sean Ingle’s take on it.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Trans women retain 12% edge in tests two years after transitioning, study finds

Trans women retained a 12% advantage and their testosterone levels remained higher even after two years of taking suppressing hormones

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

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Helleofabore · 14/08/2024 14:16

From Dr Hilton and T Lundberg. This contains great information and quantifies some of the differences. You will find this study is very well referenced by many who use the findings to explain male pubertal advantage.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage

Abstract: Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and their experienced gender identity. Accordingly, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) determined criteria by which a transgender woman may be eligible to compete in the female category, requiring total serum testosterone levels to be suppressed below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to and during competition. Whether this regulation removes the male performance advantage has not been scrutinized. Here, we review how differences in biological characteristics between biological males and females affect sporting performance and assess whether evidence exists to support the assumption that testosterone suppression in transgender women removes the male performance advantage and thus delivers fair and safe competition. We report that the performance gap between males and females becomes significant at puberty and often amounts to 10–50% depending on sport. The performance gap is more pronounced in sporting activities relying on muscle mass and explosive strength, particularly in the upper body. Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.

This second study is from Harper et al.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

Conclusions are in line with Hilton & Lundberg.

For information (considering many people will seek to discredit based on alleged bias) Harper is the transwoman who has released some sports studies in the past that had some methodology issues.

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage - Sports Medicine

Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

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