Caster Semenya court case due 15 May

Really? I thought Caster was biological father to a child.

People with this condition do not produce sperm.

Pride. Its better to be a special woman than a defective man.

People with this condition produce more T than a woman, less than a man. So not competitive with men. The rights issue is about the side effects of androgen blockers. But my issue is that they already have an unfair advantage even with androgen blockade, so should be banned altogether.

Yes! Can't be said enough. The woman who might also be from a poor village. The woman who has fewer opportunities. The woman who ought to be getting the sponsorship and a fair chance to prove herself against the best in the world.

Is the bottom line that he is not good enough to stand any chance of winning in the mens category? Presuming so. But he wants to make this a rights issue?
I heard him on Woman’s Hour (the irony!) and of course on the radio it was instantly obvious I was hearing a bloke.

I think just watching him in interviews is enough to demonstrate that he doesn't really think of himself as a woman. He calls women, 'they' and 'them'.

I do think it’s relevant that Caster does not attempt to live a female life in any way other than athletics.
That isn’t to say that doing so would make him female. It would suggest that it’s no more than a cynical lie though.

You are not alone in that.

I don't think clothes are relevant here, unless we want to say that butch lesbians who marry another woman and happen to be the one wearing the suit are no longer women?
Producing sperm and fathering a child are pretty relevant, and although it's possible that at birth Caster's parents didn't know this was going to happen, once they did, it's not acceptable for Caster to compete in women's sports.

I to agree that CS lives like a man, the wedding suit, the clothes, the behaviour. One has to question why this person who lives like a man in every area of their life is so consumed with proving they want to be seen/treated as a female? Money, I can only assume?

That's really interesting! I noticed this with the recent case of the poor girl who was given way more than the acceptable dose (if there is such a thing) of testosterone by Gender GP - giving her too much would cause her growth to stop too soon.

‘The tallness has been observed in some male children who have had their puberty blocked as well. Those male children grow taller than their predicted heights if they had gone through male puberty as expected.’

this was a well known phenomenon amongst the ‘castrato’ opera singers in the eighteenth century. Below is a satirical cartoon about Handel’s favourite singer.

This case won’t overturn World Athletics’ ruling, it will just determine whether his human rights were considered enough in the ruling, which might trigger another case in Cas. Semenya will not win that case either, because the documented evidence has been advanced since 2019 showing a retention of male advantage even with testosterone suppression.

Surely even if Semenya or other male athletes affected by DSD’s take androgen suppressants, they still carry many of the physiological advantages of male puberty? They still have the extra height, and size and angle of the pelvis, as well as not having a menstrual cycle. As pp’s said, I think they should be able to compete in the male category, but not in the women’s events.

The tallness has been observed in some male children who have had their puberty blocked as well. Those male children grow taller than their predicted heights if they had gone through male puberty as expected.

It would be a disaster if she wins. But almost as bad if she loses, because these 'kids' are still allowed to compete, and androgen blockade makes next to no difference. People don't do sport with their dna or genitals, but with their bodies. Male body should = no competing with females.

I'm not an expert but I think it is down to other genes for height on the Y chromosome, even where testosterone either isn't produced or doesn't affect the body.

Why are they tall? Is it because tallness genes cluster on the Y chromosome? Or because testosterone puts the ultimate brake on vertical growth during puberty?

I think I have read enough to know that Semenya was not brought up as a ‘girl’. Even Semenya’s sisters reported that Semenya was not treated as a girl as they were as a young child. And that photo of Semenya as a teen at the beach wearing boys swimmers that was published in Semenya’s book reinforces this.

It was a known DSD in the area where Semenya was born. That was why that area was targeted by Eckhart Arbeit to scout for exactly the type of athlete with that DSD. The South African government was after the next champions.

Semenya may have female on their birth certificate. However, I believe that Semenya knew long before the DSD was proven with the testing. This was not a case like the skier who had no idea before testing and then that skier chose to not compete unfairly and to compete with men.

Not quite...
Some men have a non-working Y chromosome. For example, Swyer Syndrome (uterus, no functional gonads, assumed to be female at birth usually, taller than a typical woman).

Some people have a Y chromosome and testes but no androgen effects (CAIS). They are also usually assumed to be female at birth.

Whether these individuals should be included in women's sports is tricky, I feel. I would be inclined to say yes, as they don't have any effect of testosterone. Again, we'd probably get an over-representation of them in elite sports as they usually are taller than average.

No one is forcing Semenya to take androgen suppressants.

He only needs to do that if he wants to cheat compete with women.

This is nonsense. There’s nothing complex at all. 5 alpha 2 reductase deficiency leads to a failure of development of external genitalia.

They don’t get vaginoplasties. There is nothing to suggest Semenya was “reared” as the female sex. There’s no such thing as gender identity so Semenya doesn’t get to choose. Semenya is male, so should be referred to as such, regardless of what he wants.

Men with this condition have a significantly reduced sperm count, sometimes zero, but it’s not impossible to father children, particularly if you have access to fertility services using the accumulated wealth from stealing prize money from women.

This isn't just about Semenya though is it? All 46XY athletes of this type should be banned, and it's a distraction talking about their manly personalities or whatever. It's the biology that needs spelling out super clearly.