Libraries promoting body mutilation as “joy” in Norfolk

There is no such 'thing' as cisgender and it isn't a medical term, it's a trans propaganda term. Most people don't have a gender identity.

It would be important information to track if a transperson stopped talking cross sex hormones whatever the reason. Any sane person would agree. Important information for anyone considering it.

Thank you for sharing the link, it seems really interesting; I will read further through it tomorrow. I agree that there should be more studies done on the subject, & I hope that detrans will be asked about their reasons for detransioning. I'm also wondering whether the researchers' idea of detransition would include all people who stopped hormone therapy, as many trans people stop taking hormones once they achieve desired results, to have a biological child etc.

When saying cis, I wasn't referring to the members of the forum, I meant cis people in general, speaking objectively. Cis as in short for the medical term cisgender, someone who's gender identity aligns with the sex assigned to them at birth. I was using it to compare to the antonym trans.

I just checked out the Transwidows website, to my understanding it's a site of mostly women who have been widowed whose ex-partners were trans. I'm seeing a lot of language that links them being trans with their mental illnesses, I find that questionable. Does this website consider being transgender as a mental illness that leads to the deaths? Obviously I imagine living most of your life playing a role that you don't fit, hearing people's devaluing/hateful approach to the topic & then facing backlash after coming out can lead to a lot of internal difficulties, especially when coming out later in life when you already have built a family. I think anyone who struggled really hard with mental illnesses & passed due to suicide has left behind a lot of grief & some people feeling conflicted or maybe even resentful if the relationship wasn't healthy. I'm worried there might be a misconception on their transness playing a part.

I hope no one minds but as a manly man I just want to respond on this “creative writing” from my perspective. I have worked in Brighton for 20+ years with both the perpetrators and victims of crime.
Trying to normalise the use of “life changing “ medical pathways as a solution to a vulnerable group is abhorrent.

I also take great issue with this paragraph:
“Promoting trans joy is not the same as trying to make people transition. Cis people looking at this wouldn't feel connected to the pieces in a way that trans people would; if people felt affirmed or would relate to them in some way they'd either identify as trans or this sight would help them realise that they are.”

Having worked with MAP clients how about if I just swop out “Promoting trans joy.”

to
“Promoting MAP joy.”

Sound ok with you?

I am aware that children are members of the general public — I'm only highlighting that it was directed at general public & not exclusively children, so I hope that clears it up. My point still stands & disregarding my entire comment purely because you misunderstood the bit I just clarified is questionable, I mean honestly it leaves me thinking that your behaviour is quite stagnant. It's important for a person to grow & develop critical thinking through actually processing other people's ideas with a receptive mind. I mean otherwise why make a post?

Is there an exhibition space upstairs on the third floor? I thought that floor only had study spaces & only the ground floor held art exhibits. Correct me on this if I'm wrong.

I haven't seen that statement from Norwich Pride so thank you for sharing. "Young people" is usually the 16-25 range.

I think the link & screenshot are quite valid & truthful to be honest

The reason I mentioned self-harm is because the figurine appears to have representations of self-harm scars all over the thighs. It's a distinctive type of scarring. I've known several people with precisely that pattern of scars from dozens of private cutting sessions.

There's not much else to look at beyond the shape of the partial body, the genitals, and the many scars.

Self-herm is an important topic, and people with scars shouldn't feel they have to cover their skin for the rest of their lives for the sake of others' sensibilities, but artworks which draw focus to graphic representations of the result of repeated self-inflicted injury are not an anytime, anywhere, anyone kind of subject.

Literally word soup.

@BeHappyHedgehog - it’s absolutely of no interest to us that your ‘friend’ created some of this nonsense. We have no issue with the creators of these rather hopeless pieces. We only care about where they are exhibited.

Thanks for coming on the feminism board and telling us to be kind and that we’re cud women and also for explaining intersectional feminism to us.

It’s just, no one has ever done that to us before. 🙄

@BeHappyHedgehog

Thank you for explaining the art. And the QR codes. I am not in Norwich but I do run a gallery in the UK and from that perspective feel that the siting of this exhibit near to the children's section in the Library was curious and led to the understandable criticism here. I assume this was not discussed or agreed with your friend? If deliberately chosen it feels quite political. The QR code presumably stated that it led to an artist statement ? (QR codes should lead to anything and I hope you understand that parents of children would be concerned if codas displayed in a children's library led to anything unsuitable for under-age viewing).

Can I ask whether you are aware of any research on the time that it takes for detransition to typically occur? The article that you link to seems to have followed up for four years. There is not much research in this area - hopefully the adult clinics that refused to provide data to the Case review will help full in the blanks now that they are sharing data. Meanwhile here is a BMJ article which states what I understand to be the current best understanding of duration to detransition.

'The use of relatively short 1-2 year follow-up periods in gender care research risks missing people who detransition, which typically occurs several years after medical or surgical interventions. Studies show the interval between transitioning and detransitioning varies from months to decades,14152024 so accurate estimates of treatment discontinuation or detransition require a follow-up of at least 5-10 years after interventions. Given that many recent research studies have follow-up times of less than five years, this also disproportionately favours knowledge creation about trans people who are in the early stages of transitioning while at the same time denying detrans people important research benefits, including specific knowledge necessary to improve care services.'

https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj-2022-073584

I am not going to comment fully on your views of the readers of this post. I am sure you know that cis is not a word we use to describe ourselves. Feminist often is a word we do often use. Our understanding of this word may be very different however. it is interesting to hear more about why the exhibits look as they do.

If you have time while in Mumsnet to seek out and read the Transwidows stories, or visit their website you might appreciate that having models of such surgeries visible in a public space where children can easily see would be disturbing. It feels thoughtless. But I appreciate that the spot chosen may not have been or the artists choosing in this case.

Well ... that's us told then

If only we understood kinder harder

Where’s that gif of a manly man has come to explain when you need it?

What an educational post.

Oops I think the link didn't work because of the image but you can find the study I mentioned here
—

It appears like the entire point of that exhibition was missed here. The exhibition was not aimed at children, but at members of the general public. Transitioning is not the same as body mutilation or self harm, & there are no women or girls in the exhibits. This choice of words is blatantly transphobic as it erases the identities that the subject covered — it's pretty clear that the art pieces discussed & people behind them are not women, considering that that's the point of the display.

The "small figurine of a woman's lower half" (once again, not a woman) only doesn't have limbs etc. because it's a prototype of a vase; it feels like the wording "cut off" is used to make it sound more gruesome than it actually is, but correct me if I'm wrong & that wasn't your aim. The sculpture includes bottom growth which is one of the effects of hormone therapy, & although it can cause some physical discomfort, for most people it actually doesn't cause any pain. People who choose to go on hormone therapy are aware of all its effects & only highlighting the possible side effect of pain due to bottom growth kind of shows a lack of understanding of how life saving hormone therapy actually is.

I understand this topic may be foreign to you — at the same time reacting with such strong negative language isn't appropriate. Just because people's reality is different doesn't make it a "horror show". It's just different to you & that's okay, it is what it is.

Promoting trans joy is not the same as trying to make people transition. Cis people looking at this wouldn't feel connected to the pieces in a way that trans people would; if people felt affirmed or would relate to them in some way they'd either identify as trans or this sight would help them realise that they are. If someone feels that they are in the right body, they wouldn't decide to transition, so no, this won't convince cis young minds to just go for it.

If your child did come out as trans though, how would you navigate your love for them through all this judgement? Surely this shouldn't make you feel that they'd be less than who they were before coming out. After all people's value doesn't vary based on gender. I think we're forgetting that feminism aims for equality for all, including trans people. If you're a passionate feminist I'd suggest having a look at the intersectionality of it as it's something mainstream liberal feminists (aka white feminist movement) tend to miss out. Researching intersectional feminism would be a great way to start understanding how factors other than sex assigned at birth play a part in privilege. Personally it gave me a massive reality check on factors I don't consider purely because I'm lucky enough to not have to face them on daily basis.

It's also worth mentioning that the vast majority of people who transition do not detransition later on. There are studies that look into detransitioning, for starters the ones you can find , that not only provide stats on that, but also look into causes of detransition. The link mentions that "the most common reasons citied were pressure from a parent (36%), transitioning was too hard (33%), too much harassment or discrimination (31%), & trouble getting a job (29%)". These aren't reasons of people who feel transitioning wasn't something they wanted, but who have been kicked down by societal factors to revert to a place where they weren't happy to begin with. When it comes to people who realise they're cis after transitioning, a part of them is glad that they've transitioned regardless because it helped them get better clarity on who they are that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise, as they'd still be stuck confused on what's right for them. & then we have a small fraction of people that you mentioned, who have transitioned & upon realising it doesn't feel right for them, detransitioned & feel regret about their process. Their existence & experience is completely valid too, & I can imagine how difficult that must be. Let's just keep in mind that when it comes to medical procedures in general, there will always be a fraction of people who regret getting them done. That doesn't mean that whatever service it is, it shouldn't exist, because at the end of the day it helps masses.

Also to answer your concerns about "WTF that [QR code] was", it was a link to artists' elaborations on their pieces. I have attached a screenshot of ones for the two pieces that you've said the most about. It just so happens that they were made by my friend & I don't have any other screenshots because of that; I have only censored his name because this isn't a safe place for it to be known. You're right that you should've checked it, maybe it could've given you slightly more perspectives on the meaning behind them.

To finish this off, representation shouldn't feel like a threat. There is space for all of us in this world & just because you're used to art that's more understandable to you, doesn't mean that all other art shouldn't exist.

I agree with this.

Have your trans joy exhibition by all means, but in an adult-only space.

Not just an adult-only space, but an adult-only space where people have a reasonable idea of the kinds of things they might see.

I'm not a fan of extensive, explicit content warnings about absolutely everything, but I do think that it's inconsiderate to put potentially distressing material somewhere it won't be remotely expected. If I read a serious novel, go to a 15 certificate film, watch the news, go into an art gallery, or attend a history lecture, I should prepare myself for potential mention, discussion, examination or portrayal of difficult or upsetting issues.

But if I went into a wine bar I wouldn't expect to see images of suicide on the walls, the same way that if I went into the library — even the adult books section — I wouldn't expect to see graphic depictions of genitals and self-harm scars.

@KayMasonBillig just another Mother, of a young teen daughter, who lives in Norwich here to say thank you for bravely intervening.. I know full well how hard it is to take even a very reasonable stand against the TRA’s we really do appreciate your support.

If any union activists are reading this thread, please leave Kay Mason-Billig alone! It’s not transphobic to object to the staging of explicit art - including a micro penis and syringe - in a public library where it will be easily seen by children. Have your trans joy exhibition by all means, but in an adult-only space. Fill your boots! Nobody cares. Just leave kids out of it.

Meanwhile the trans ‘safe space’ poster is not offensive but it’s pretty redundant. Of course the library is a safe space for all protected characteristics! This is not the Wild West, it’s a flipping library. Grow up and stop trying to cancel people who have legitimate concerns around child safeguarding. Maybe use the library as nature intended - for reading books in a quiet and peaceful environment.

Never mind the missing posters for age, disability etc, we need really offensive and disturbing artwork to go with them!

Does anybody know if one already exists? It would be good to be able to send one to them as a solution.

Sadly that doesn't surprise me about a union. They are almost all firmly on the TRA side, as far as I can see.

<side eye at UCU>

@ThatLibraryDebate Shame on Unison for missing the point so spectacularly 🤬

Norfolk Unison emailed members about it today, which is what made me come to Mumsnet to see what they were emailing about.

My organisation is highly... well let's just say that I'm VERY wary of posting the contents of the email myself, even with this name change. I can't find it in a public document. Is anybody else here a member of Norfolk Unison and in a better position to post it in full?

Essentially the email makes it clear that Unison are going after Cllr Mason-Billig and reads as if it's all about a "trans-friendly space poster" being removed, rather than the presence of imagery and themes that aren't suitable for children, in a public exhibition space where children are likely to see it.

Another one thanking Kay for coming back.
We desperately need those in charge at local and national level to ensure that staff aren't using the workplace to promote their own niche beliefs. Especially when those beliefs involve undermining the safety of children with age inappropriate images and pronouncements.