Libraries promoting body mutilation as “joy” in Norfolk

Yesterday I was wearing tracksuit bottoms and a T-shirt whilst watching football most of the day. Was I living as a man?

I don't understand it either.
I do some things that are thought to be stereotypically female.
I do some things that are thought to be stereotypically male.
Some of the things I have done have been driven by my biology.

@BeHappyHedgehog

Gender identity is an un-evidenced belief. Please show me some evidence that such a confection even exists.

And again, cis-gender is not a medical term, it is an ideological one.

you likely live as a woman or a man

Could you clarify what that means please? In case I'm not living correctly.

Well, that's me convinced by a photo of the OED from Wikipedia.

Not.

I find it really hard to believe that after all that time that FWR exists and all the stick that MN got in the media for allowing women to talk about this issue there is still a single person out there who thinks they can share something with the women (and a few men) on here that they haven't heard/read/had mansplained to them many many times before.

I very much appreciate that the women on this board have really thought about the issues. Not learnt to spout glib explanations designed to support particular positions, but actually thought.

Gender identity is simply your own identity within yourself. Unless you feel that you have no gender, you likely live as a woman or a man. Sex is a trait that describes one's reproductive organs, i.e. female, male or intersex. Gender is a trait that describes one's correspondence of their sex with their identity i.e. woman, man or non-binary. If you were assigned female at birth & feel that corresponds with how you feel internally then you are a woman. Everyone identifies somehow, & if you were lucky for your sex & gender to be aligned from birth then that's amazing for you — I understand that in that case it's not so clear cut to acknowledge that because you don't have to highlight your identity on the daily basis as it's more easily noticeable, you still identify as a certain gender.

Respectfully, cisgender is a medical term that was coined in 1990s to establish a distinction from transgender as before then there was not much awareness on transgenderism. On Wiki in the 'History & usage of the term' in the 'Academic use' section, they state that "Medical academics use the term and have recognized its importance in transgender studies since the 1990s.[13][14][15] After the terms cisgender and cissexual were used in a 2006 article in the Journal of Lesbian Studies[16] and Serano's 2007 book Whipping Girl,[17] the former gained further popularity among English-speaking activists and scholars.[18][19][20] Cisgender was added to the Oxford English Dictionary in 2015, defined as "designating a person whose sense of personal identity corresponds to the sex and gender assigned to him or her at birth (in contrast with transgender)".[21] Perspectives on History states that since this inclusion, the term has increasingly become common usage.[11]"

Ah, but they are already enlightened. They don't need anything further as they have reached educational Nirvana.

Well indeed!

I’d suggest to our prickly visitor that they spend some time on the Transwidows threads here ‘with a receptive mind’ and educate themselves thus.

I mean honestly it leaves me thinking that your behaviour is quite stagnant. It's important for a person to grow & develop critical thinking through actually processing other people's ideas with a receptive mind

Well that's us told, eh wims? Not even lunchtime on a Monday and we've been educated. How fortunate we are.

I understand your thoughts on self harm scarring. As mentioned in the screenshot, some of the marks were stretch marks & some were self harm scars. I see you think that people shouldn't feel they have to mask their scars & I agree. There's a lot of art made by people who have struggled in that way to make people feel they're not alone & that it does get better. If you were someone who is going through hell, knowing that people have gone through hell & back & are still standing would be indeed lifesaving. It's not pretty but it's the reality of many. May I also mention that the self harm scars on the sculpture are fully healed? That implies perseverance & literal healing

Indeed. Maybe the poster will return at some stage having educated themselves about child safeguarding, the concept of age appropriateness, women's rights, the Nolan Principles as they apply to local government, feminist theory and a number of other fundamental principles missing from their "I'm here to lecture women" posts.

But I won't hold my breath 😂

Cool, I am studying crime & take great interest in it — if you have any reasons that interlink your job with how you view transitioning feel free to share as I'd like to learn more about your viewpoint. Normalising trans representation & creating awareness about minority groups alike shouldn't be taken as something that will cause harm to any vulnerable groups or "make them turn" — after all, it's nothing short of educating that different people live in this world. When exhibits about disabilities are held, I am sure people don't take it as the disabled community trying to encourage more people to "become" disabled.

Could you elaborate what about said paragraph concerned you if you can?

Do you think it's strange how there are high rates of LGBTQIA+ people seeking out wellbeing services? Statistically, they face much higher risks of abuse of all types due to hate crime which I'm sure you know leads to many difficulties. I'd say that many trans people especially face intense backlash so it makes sense why so many struggle psychologically as this world wasn't made with them in mind. I think it's great that services like MAP exist to help all people who struggle & high rates of said group just go to show that society makes it way harder for them to peacefully function. What are your thoughts?

“I understand this topic may be foreign to you”

Oh my. Someone didn’t do their research before blundering into FWR with their patronising bollocks to educate the (mostly) women here on trans issues, did they? And us silly women couldn’t possibly manage to understand art either, could we?

Very foolish presumptions, mate.

I mean, using words like "nonsense" & "hopeless" paints a picture that you do directly have some sort of bashing emotions towards the art presented & not only where it was but do correct me if that wasn't your intention

@BeHappyHedgehog :
"I think we're forgetting that feminism aims for equality for all, including trans people."

That is not feminism. It is laudable, but it is not feminism, because feminism centres women, not "all".

'Transwidow' is a term used for a woman whose partner has decided to change gender after being married as their natal sex. This can cause extreme distress for the other partner - and yes, there may be other factors. It is usually the female partner who has child(ren) to consider who now has to decide whether they wish to remain married and in what terms. It's an extremely thorny issue, heartbreaking and not easy to decide what to do. Children in such families are often torn apart by their own difficult decisions. much worse than in a regular divorce. Understatement. To use a term that I don't usually use, this display could be 'triggering' to such families. Ditto to some transitioners or to parents of same. If cutting/self harm are part of the display this also. It does seem a VERY poor choice of siting within the library.

Reasons for detransition do need to be better understood. If someone is expecting to cease transition in order to have children later (your example) they need very very careful advice at the onset, as sterility through treatment is likely to occur. If you are not familiar with it this recent article on how puberty blockers affect sperm production and maturity and health of testes, it is very interesting (pre print so not yet peer reviewed but looks sound research) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10996503/

This is not a simple decision for trans people, their families or partners. Especially young trans people who may not achieve sexual functioning or be able to have children dependant on what they are told/understand. More good quality research and a lot of it is needed. It is not transphobic to ask whether children can consent to things they may struggle to understand. The leaked WPATH files suggest that clinicians involved in transitioning children are aware that children do not understand but went ahead anyway. The stories of detransitioners are very hard to listen to without getting very angry on their behalf and on behalf of their families.

From the sound of things I would be interested and informed by your friend's display. The displays in children's libraries that concern me most atm are those that trivialize and make childlike the issues. Colourful rainbows, flags, unicorns and happy looking transitioners showing mastectomy scars. It feels like a sinister marketing campaign.

This one?

I understand this topic may be foreign to you
😀

My point still stands

Its hard to gauge your point, but if it is one of:

Bodily self mutilation is something to be normalised, celebrated and promoted

or

Women on Mumsnet are silly airheads who don’t understand “art”

or

Women on Mumsnet don’t love and support their children adequately

Then it never stood at all.

It's important for a person to grow & develop critical thinking through actually processing other people's ideas with a receptive mind.

Actual lol at that bit.

@BeHappyHedgehog

I understand this topic may be foreign to you — at the same time reacting with such strong negative language isn't appropriate.

No, we understand your asinine beliefs all too well here on FWR, hence the outrage. The fact you can't see that such a grim spectacle doesn't belong where kids can see it says all I need to know about your personal capacity for safe decision-making.

Cis as in short for the medical term cisgender, someone who's gender identity aligns with the sex assigned to them at birth

If you believe that cis is a medical term, perhaps it is you that needs to better understand the issue.

In short, you probably think youbare special coming onto FWR to "educate" us wims, then surely we'll let you have anything you want. Your problem is that we do understand it.

Oh and cisgender is an offensive term which is usually not permitted on these forums. I won't report your post because otherwise this thread will not make sense but please do not use it in future. It is assigning a gender identity to an entire group who do not believe they have one. So stop.

I can tell you exactly how I would react if my child told me they were transgender, suddenly in adolescence. I would not affirm their identity, I would get them neutral, exploratory therapy, I would tell school that they were not to socially transition them behind our backs and make them roll back the changes they had made. And I would be doing this on the advice of mental health professionals. I know this because it's what happened. And four years on, DD is now not using male pronouns, and does not want to have surgery.

This is key, because there is not one uniform 'trans person'. There are some people who have wanted this for all their lives and I want all the best for them. The manly men who come to explain being women to us tend to transition late in life for perhaps different reasons. But teenage girls? They are fleeing from the bin fire that womanhood looks like for them, usually because of some kind of neurodiversity or trauma. Most of them don't even get into the clinical system, and that's good. Because the detransition rate in this group - ROGD if you want a name for it - is between 90 and 95% if they are left alone to just be a teenager. We don't need to affirm them, or medicalise them or encourage them to have surgery. Because these are the ones whose regrets are now all over social media are mostly girls who have transitioned in adolescence. And these are the ones who do not need 'trans joy' (aka fetishistic male sexual arousal) in their libraries.