Libraries promoting body mutilation as “joy” in Norfolk

So getting back to the thread...

I think we've just witnessed how the grotesque display happened:

A teenage artist whose conception of gender comes only from tumblr and their equally ill-informed friends wishes to create an edgy art piece to center themselves in a public conversation about a controversial topic.

Having no concept of safeguarding themselves, and no grownups in the room at the library to tell them no - in fact willing them on to display their right-on progressive credentials - decided that the entrance lobby would get maximum visibility to expose the artist's journey to all those boring normies and their children who haven't bothered to educate themselves.

Sound about right?

"I think we're forgetting"

?Really? 'WE' ? ? ?

That may be the most offensive thing in the whole heap of poo.

Feminism is about women. That includes trans people who call themselves transmen, because they are, fundamentally, women. It doesn't include transpeople who call themselves transwomen, because they are, fundamentally, men.

I don't hate men, some of my best friends etc etc etc. But I know how things are stacked against women, and I will fight to right that wrong.

To add, I think you'll find that this approach is why you are receiving the kind of responses you are

Thank you for responding BeHappy
I agree you have been responding respectfully regards answering poster's questions and not name calling etc.

Re the Trans widows thread; I was specifically referring to you thinking it was about widowhood in the conventional meaning- which suggested at that point, that you hadn't read the thread.

Also, like others, I am not at all calling into question your strong belief that you have a gender identity, whilst also like others, expecting the understanding that others (like myself), don't have that belief.

Regarding the main point of my post you are responding to, it is sections like this, that you wrote, that I would ask you to reflect. In relation to coming onto a feminist board, where women gather who have been active feminists for years. This is what comes across as arrogance and 'secure knowledge' unquestioned:

"I think we're forgetting that feminism aims for equality for all, including trans people. If you're a passionate feminist I'd suggest having a look at the intersectionality of it as it's something mainstream liberal feminists (aka white feminist movement) tend to miss out. Researching intersectional feminism would be a great way to start understanding how factors other than sex assigned at birth play a part in privilege."

Also, referring to links from wiki is unsurprisingly insulting to the level of education and knowledge of the women on here.

Having said all this, kudos to you for engaging and stating that you may have gained some new areas to explore and learn about.

I'll forever be grateful for the introduction of 'cryptic testicles' to my lexicon. I understand it's probably an actual, although rarely used, medical term. If I was in the market for a band name or a name change it'd be right up there.

@Mochudubh that is correct, the reference to MAPs was to a term used to describe paedophiles.

Jeez, I've just caught up with this thread. I'm boggled at the brass neck of someone who has come on here to educate us all like we're a bunch of know-nothings who haven't been discussing this topic for literally years.

I'm wondering if @BeHappyHedgehog is familiar with the Staniland Question. If not, this is it:
Do you believe that male-sexed people should have the right to undress and shower in the same changing room as teenaged girls?

And then think for a minute about a) how the girls are going to feel about it and b) how allowing men to do this opens a huge great loophole for all the perverts out there (and God knows, there are plenty of them, I encountered several in my teenaged years).

Before you go off on one, I'm not suggesting that trans people are perverts, I'm just trying to explain to you that it's practically impossible to separate harmless men from harmful men BEFORE a girl is groped or raped.

So if we have to accept people with male genitals in our changing rooms, how many girls (and women) have to be overly filmed with their clothes off, letched at, groped and raped in the interests of 'not invalidating trans identities'?

My answer to this is that male-bodied people can fuck off out of female spaces, because even one adolescent girl being harmed is one girl too many (sexual assault is rife anyway: I was sexually assaulted or flashed at five times before I was 18).

So, before you come preaching at us in our supposed benighted ignorance, just THINK for a moment why we're so bloody inflamed about all of this.

And that's before we get onto sports, prisons and the rest of it.

So it's okay for you to stop reading something you deliberately sought out because you found aspects of it hurtful, but it's not okay for people to object to being unexpectedly presented with something they find distressing in a space where nobody expects to be seeing that kind of thing (or at least, it's not okay if it's something that's the result of a trans person expressing themselves — presumably the usual conventions of appropriacy still apply to everyone else). The pain you feel when you encounter something you find difficult within material you actively went looking for, that really matters, and you're entitled to stop reading and ask other people to create a nice filleted version for you. But I should just suck it up if I'm distressed by a 3D, full-colour representation of legs scarred by self-cutting and hormonally-altered genitals appearing in front of me when I'm going to pick up some books or use the photocopiers. My pain doesn't matter but yours does. Got it.

It's nothing to be scared of, & the backlash my friend's art has faced shows that it's still not seen as valid.

Nobody is "scared" that there exist people who believe things that cannot be evidenced, or that don't exist in material reality.

But there are plenty of harmful things that follow from such beliefs. And attempting to force people to validate a belief that someone can somehow be a different sex from the one they really are results in all sorts of harms.

Nobody has suggested that your friend's art isn't valid, whatever you mean by that, but that it is completely inappropriate to he displayed where it was, and if you or the library staff can't see that then all of the regulars here will express our concern at your capacity to make appropriate safeguarding decisions.

You say you suffere from gender dysphoria. I don't speak for everyone here but nobody I've seen disagrees that some people feel genuine mental anguish when thinking about the sexed parts of their body. But what is not proven is what that discomfort is, or where it comes from, or what an appropriate treatment is, or whether that pain is related to sex at all and isn't just another manifestation of body dysmorphia. This disagreement isn't just here at FWR, but within the gender medicine community itself.

So pretending that extreme body modification, as depicted by your friend's art, creates some sort of joy in its victims, is both unfounded and worrisome to the elder here who care deeply about the wellbeing of the children and adults around us.

Good grief! You really are still putting yourself and your and your friend's trans identity at the centre of this. Your friend's art hasn't faced backlash for being trans - they are entitled to create whatever art they like, and some people have in fact commented on the fact that they found it interesting. Some people will like it and some won't- that's the nature of art, regardless of the subject matter. The backlash has been over the fact that it was entirely inappropriate for the space it was placed in and the fact that children would see it. I really don't think anybody here is trying to deny your experience (though of course I might be wrong- I'm not a mind reader). I am interested to hear it, because I think it is important to hear the views of those with a range of experiences and beliefs - how else can we broaden our range of experience of life? However I think it is important that you extend the same courtesy to others. You are trying to deny the experience of those on transwidows, who felt that transgenderism was at the root of their partners' mental health difficulties. Fine not to agree with it, but you can't just deny their experience! You are also trying to imply that your beliefs around gender are the only valid ones - people can listen to your views and respectfully disagree. That absolutely does not cancel out your identity. As you said, that's personal to you anyway.

I am not the poster who first used the term MAP on the thread but I believe they were alluding to Minor Attracted Persons aka Paedophiles.

Am I allowed to shout “parklife” yet?

but then we can tell that hedgehog knows exactly what sex is when necessary as I doubt hedgehog has been off to male dominated boards like piston heads to tell off the menz

if I'm experiencing it & I have a community who can vouch for themselves experiencing it too, to me that's secure knowledge

So just to be clear, if all the girls on the eating disorders unit believe they are fat, that's proof they are all fat?

You have no idea how shallow and superficial your thinking is, do you?

Not gonna lie, the first abbreviation I could think of was Medical Aid for Palestinians so then I looked it up & the first result linked to the UK mental wellbeing service so I assumed that had to be it. Would you mind elaborating what that stands for in this case? Seems like there are a lot of MAPs so my bad

Ah, now I understand what "living as a woman" means - tone and language policing to be properly ladylike and only address appropriate issues using suitably demure words.

Thank you for sharing. I believe I have learned a lot from people on this thread. I have looked into pieces sent to me so it feels that I will be exiting this discussion with more knowledge. As I mentioned in a different reply, the reason why I specifically didn't read further into other sections of the website was because the "Transwidows" section implied transgenderism was the root of mental illnesses. If the language was more neutral & didn't entangle the two I would've loved to learn more, just not at the expense of being told that my identity is the root of all problems. I did mention that if anyone was willing to send through quotes or elaborations to do with the website, so that I can learn without having to read the parts that I find harmful, I would greatly appreciate it & that point still stands.

Having personal perspective definitely plays a part in my viewpoint because for starters I know gender dysphoria is real & so is my identity; if I'm experiencing it & I have a community who can vouch for themselves experiencing it too, to me that's secure knowledge — that undeniably, people with identities that aren't congruent with their sex exist. Seeing descriptions like "woman" of the pieces although the exhibit is very clearly about trans visibility paints a picture of somewhat denial, or even erasure of identities. In no way, shape or form I'm trying to invalidate anyone on here, I'm simply saying that our existence is real too. It's nothing to be scared of, & the backlash my friend's art has faced shows that it's still not seen as valid. People shouldn't feel threatened due to our existence because there's space for all of us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but compared to the original post & replies before mine, I have kept my posts respectful. I didn't deny anyone's lived experience & how they choose to live or resort to snarky or even disrespectful comments & name calling that I have now received from others. Regardless of that I'm glad that I've been able to have a few constructive exchanges with people, those are very enlightening

edit: Also thank you for the link!

Just been reading through - Hedgehog, it seems that you have a simplistic idea that any adolescent girl in psychological pain because of approaching sexual maturity just has body dysmorphia (have we heard of this??😂) and this can be easily treated. You have no idea of the depths and complexity of psychological problems that can arise, and no understanding of teenage girls or what it is to be one. This is simplistic nonsense, surface level understanding. There are a lot of parents on here who have cared for a disturbed adolescent through depression, anorexia, self harm and other painful and long lasting difficulties. And it is not simple or easy to come through.

Hmm. Trans people are intersex / third sex and have brains very similar to those of the opposite sex, on brain scans. I see. And what about the more recent studies, which show that it's virtually impossible to tell, using brain scans - once size differences are removed?

Ha. In all this gish gallop, I missed that. I was going by the style of writing/argumentation.

Beowulfa · Today 13:22

Oh, I know this one. If you live in the USA and like football you're a woman, if in Mexico you're a man. So if you sit straddling Trump's border wall with a leg each side you're intersex.

😂😂

@BeHappyHedgehog I’m an art historian and have no issue with the artworks in themselves - just their placements. In the same way I have no issues with many controversial or challenging artworks, but don’t think they should be on display in a public library.

I think the key point here is that for the majority of people on this board, the concept of ‘gender identity’ is a belief, akin to a religious belief. I don’t personally believe that people have a gender identity. I also don’t believe that jesus was the son of god or that there is no god but allah. That doesn’t make me transphobic, christian-phobic or islamophobic. I respect and am friends with many people whose beliefs I don’t share - for example, i’m an atheist and my best friend is a christian. I don’t doubt the strength or genuine nature of her belief, and I don’t doubt the genuine nature of yours, either. I only have a problem with the beliefs of others if they expect me to profess that I believe the same thing, or if their beliefs impinge on my own safety and freedoms, or, as in the topic at hand, if they involve children’s safety and lack of medical evidence/safeguarding.

I appreciate that the ‘social contagion’ argument must feel reductive and hurtful - I’m bisexual myself and am familiar with the ‘it’s just a phase’ brigade. The difference here is that being gay or bisexual doesn’t involve making permenant changes to one’s body while still a child, and i’m sure you’ll agree that what we all want, ultimately, is for young people to get the evidence based and sensitive support and care they deserve.

Does that make sense? I appreciate that you’ve come here to defend your friend and to engage in discussion without being aggressive or rude (not saying you would be, but we’ve had bad experiences on this board before) - respectful debate and willingness to listen to the views of others is the best way forward for us all as adults in a civilised society.

(edited to add a bit about social contagion and because I can’t spell today!)

It's like it's 2017 all over again.

@BeHappyHedgehog Your explanation of the "third sex" is very muddled and actually offensive in parts.
Obviously I don't know where in the world you live, but "intersex" is an outdated term in the UK.
Here is a link to the NHS definition of Klinefelter syndrome, which affects only males.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/klinefelters-syndrome/
Note this sentence: "Boys and men with Klinefelter syndrome are still genetically male".
There is no such thing as a third sex.