There's nothing I can do about this, is there?

I don't give a shit if this person identifies as a woman or a cauliflower. I don't wish to see what he was displaying. Something you and I have in common is we are both rape victims and while seeing this may not trigger you it makes me feel highly uncomfortable. And more so because I know if I express my discomfort I'm called transphobic. That's why he does it, it's a power thing.

You don't get to judge someone for feeling like this especially when, if I was to misgender this person (literal fucking violence, apparently) I would be Public Enemy No.1.

This isn't denying trans people exist (and we're accused of hysteria?! ) this is asking for the respect they demand to work both ways.

And I'd being asked to dress respectfully makes them unsafe they possibly need to work from home

@Goldfishonabike why don't you try reading all the responses to you that have answered the same old trope you keep peddling, might save you some typing time and stop you looking daft.

What harm, in all seriousness, is being inflicted upon you by seeing the outline of a penis under a pair of tights? It is mind boggling to be in any serous way upset about this. All it’d ever get from me is an eye roll and a shrug. Would I encourage my son to dress Iike that? No. Would I tell him not to if he did? Yes. Would I go as far as to harass a staff member in a cafe with a complaint over such a thing? No.

if trans women being allowed to exist publicly isn’t ok with you all, then what do you suggest they do? Crawl under a rock in shame? Do you have any idea if the discrimination trans people experience already? Suicide rates? Mental health statistics? You are acting as if trans people are somehow the winners here, coming out on top, when in fact the community is hugely discriminated against and vilified. That person probably struggled long and hard to get the age Nero job. Do you think they walk down a high street in a smaller town late at night dressed like that unless they have a death wish? No.
but you couldn’t let that person feel safe even at work with an employer who accepted them the way they were.

last time I checked every single stereotypical male figure such as Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, Andrew Tate etc, we all transphobes and pretty much homophobes too.
how many of you have in actual real
lfke been harassed by a male identifying man, and how many by a trans person?

What if this man was dressed like this in a primary school canteen kitchen?

We can make a huge list of all the situations when it’s not socially acceptable. Not only this but his choosing to wear it when it’s clearly not norm shows us that he has another unpleasant or sinister motive.

It certainly shows that this "transwoman " is a man, no woman would go to work in a cafe dressed thusly, because she wouldn't feel safe to wear tights and a t-shirt, with no skirt.

Good point. it's likely there were several small kids in pushchairs with parents having a drink.

Wasn't there a incident recently of a kids soft play place being used after closing for an adults private fetish party?

Boundaries - who needs 'em

L

It's really not hard to understand.

For a few posters it apparently is. Wild.

What if this man was wearing this outfit in a cafe in a soft play? Would this still be acceptable for these posters? Or it is just women that need to put up and shut up with this.

I don’t want to see a man’s cock and balls in a cafe. I don’t care what sex he is pretending to be. I don’t consent to this.

In the West it goes against the cultural norm for men (or indeed women) to wear clothing that reveals the outline of the genitals outside of a few exceptions:

Sports that require tight clothing for performance reasons (swimming, cycling, etc): fine. Clubs, parties, rock concerts where everyone is knowing what they are going to see: fine. Beach: fine.

An ordinary retail environment where you are serving members of the public: not fine.

It's really not hard to understand.

A woman walked past my table on holiday wearing thong bikini bottoms. Her swinging arse cheeks nearly touched! She was undoubtedly a woman. I didn't like that either. I thought it was inappropriate in the restaurant and there were signs up saying "No Swimwear". So she was breaching the rules, although I didn't take it further than an envious glance.

Some items of clothing are not appropriate. As the person in the coffee shop presumably has a staff uniform policy, the person is choosing to wear something revealing and inappropriate. The person needs to be told to wear different clothing.

To not see that this ideology IS the patriarchy, writ large, is beyond blind, it’s delusional.

Yep, it boils down to this. But the TRA's absolutely get it and I think this poster gets it too.

Are you in all seriousness suggesting that by allowing men to wear tights,
you’re contributing to a lack of safeguarding in the health system?

//

First off it's not just a man wearing tights. Obviously.
It's a man dressing in a way that deliberately emphasises his penis when it's not appropriate.

What part of thin end of a wedge aren't you getting?

By being ok with this you are absolutely heading towards being ok with an ideology which is causing harm to women, kids and young people.

This thread brings to mind the issues around Drag Time Story Time, which kind of humans does it benefit to lower boundaries around what is acceptable for a man to wear in public and around children?

It's all part of the same drive to get people to go along with other people's fetishes.

To not see that this ideology IS the patriarchy, writ large, is beyond blind, it’s delusional.

In 20 years time the NHS will still be trying to ring fence the compo budget it'll have to keep paying out to all the kids who got given harming blockers, hormones and surgeries and are now prematurely aged and suffering horrible chronic conditions and disabilities.

Helen Webberley and Susie Green will be writing pleading letters to the parole board

Jolyon Maugham will be begging for loose change on street corners

And little OJ will finally be allowed to have an iphone in his secure unit, from which he can shout at women on twitter.

@FlexIt 'An accepted social norm here is that men don’t have cock and balls on show in leggings (excepting ballet dancers etc). Therefore it’s perfectly reasonable that the OP objects and wishes to draw this to the managements attention.'

Exactly. Though ballet dancers don't put everything on display, either. See Noel Coward's reaction:

When a male dancer in Coward's London revue Sigh No More forgot to wear the proper support, Noel said to the choreographer:
"For God's sake, go and tell that young man to take that Rockingham tea service out of his tights."

😂

I know, it’s beyond belief, I despair in the human race sometimes 😢

What you won’t admit is that taking away the rights of women by colonising the very concept of womanhood and using legislation to silence women who object, is in itself as mysoginistic as it comes. We are entitled to boundaries, we are entitled to withhold consent, we are absolutely entitled to say no to men seeing our naked bodies or touching us intimately without our consent.
No woman has the right to give consent on behalf of other women, particularly not in the service of men and especially not to give access to women's bodies without our consent. Women who have been raped by men should not be then forced to have their vagina penetrated by a mans fingers during a forensic examination or have to discuss her rape with a male, as many males get sexual satisfaction from just hearing about a woman’s rape. This is well known, and documented fact by the way.
It’s not just about looks or voice, we are biological and have biological responses, pheromones are a thing and a woman can smell when a man is aroused, even subconsciously.
This ideology comes from a patriarchal system of enforcing men’s desires and priorities on women, it is in itself patriarchal to the core and is in the tradition of controlling women just as much as the chastity belt, scolds bridal, fgm and the witch burnings. It is, in fact, a form of rape.
There is a reason why women who support this are called handmaids, because they are validating and enforcing a patriarchal construct that takes away women’s boundaries and the very premise that males need to obtain consent. It is abusive and is in actual fact a grave breach of women’s human rights, all groups are entitled to rights, you cannot elevate one group above another and call that justice, it’s not, it’s oppression.

the correlation of social norms with shortcomings in the public sector is a fallacy an a master stroke by the right wing propaganda machines.

• no, allowing social norms around gender to change does not automatically result in failures in the health system
• yes, trans people and kids can be supported and helped and allowed to be who they are in the health system without shaming them and eroding their right to exist culturally
• the healthcare for trans people and especially has failed and needs to be improved, but not by fighting the allies of trans people culturally, but by giving more funding, applying better procedures and learning from the mistakes made

Meh, people should be able to wear what they want as long as they are decently covered. Go to another coffee shop if you don’t like it.

Are you in all seriousness suggesting that by allowing men to wear tights,
you’re contributing to a lack of safeguarding in the health system?

Well I think most people wouldn’t go around naked even if they could, give the weather in this country is pretty awful most the time so think the novelty would quickly wear off.

the people in the country can elect the political leaders who represent the social norms they want to see. I don’t have strong views on how other people choose to dress, as long as they don’t tell me how to dress. I DO have strong feelings on that and for this reason don’t like visiting orthodox churches for example as I loathe being told to cover my legs and hair by some orthodox male priest. I can, however, choose not to enter the churches an often I choose not to. If I do, I grumble and cover my hair. My employer has a dress code too, and I’ve accepted that by taking the job I have. So in this case it’s up to Cafe Nero what attire it deems
appropriate, not up to the particular sensibilities of one customer.

But it's the thin end of the wedge.

It's a small creep creep of small actions, erosion of boundaries.

By saying this is ok and peoples responses to this man is wrong, you are condoning the bigger picture. The harm in the report has been ra ra'd along by the likes of Stonewall and Mermaids and no matter where you then try and draw your line you will then become a bigot too. So your stuffed

at which point have I condoned hormone therapy and surgery of children and teens? You’re getting things mixed up here. That’s a separate issue.
Theres a long way from allowing adult men to wear tights to allowing children to undergo invasive surgeries that cannot be reversed and I would never condone that or allow my own children to have that.
to me that’s a system failure and a safeguarding issue.
when new things happen lots of things go wrong and this is one of the lessons we should all take onboard - which I understand the Cass repot says too, begged healthcare for trans people is needed.

Yes the backlash is very strong as with the undoing of traditional gender constructs a whole lot of people stand to loose their power and privileges so naturally the patriarchy and it’s unwitting supporters aren’t going to give up without a huge fight and it may not be in my lifetime that the fight is won. But the needle is being moved, otherwise the backlash wouldn’t be so ferocious