There's nothing I can do about this, is there?

Is that the same GLAAD that proactively pushes the administering of damaging cross-sex hormones and disabling surgeries to CHILDREN? The same GLAAD whose covert funding caused Dawn Butler to mislead Parliament and led to a chilling effect within the Labour Party whereby women who recognise biological reality were bullied and drummed out?

Aw how sweet. And you quoted a TS lyric. How sassy; you really owned the terfs.

I visited this branch of Caffè Nero on Thursday 11th and Friday 12th November.

It's April.

Probably the least likely to be dangerous to women

More than 50% of transwomen in prison in the UK are there for sexual assault crimes. That's about 5 times as many as in the general male prison population. So statistically speaking, transwomen are the type of man most likely to be dangerous to women.

And that's before we even get onto the vast number of sexual killers and sadists who were trans. Off the top of my head: John Wayne Gacy, Ed Gein, Peter Sutcliffe, Beate Schmidt, Donna Perry, Harvey Micelin, Sam Coetzee, John Frank Brown, Hadden Clark, Russell Williams, Reginald Arthurell, Henry Lee Lucas...

Sorry for deadnaming so many of the true and honest women named above, btw. I can't help it, I'm a terf.

Let me try to finally engage with this argument properly. So what many of you are arguing is, in all seriousness, that trans women are more likely to harm women than straight men? Is that correct? And your fear is that if being out and proud trans becomes accepted, it will become more widespread and women up and down the country will begin to become molested in large numbers by trans women?

This thread is showing the ferocity of many people’s fear of gender norms changing at the moment. Who ever reported the comment I made is proof of that.

• the point I was making (and I hope this one gets to stay up) was that whatever some people may want to see happening, the younger generations in the West are becoming more open minded, and seeing blokes in tights will become more normal, and one day no one will fear this anymore. Just as seeing women in pants would once have been frowned upon and reported, but is now normal. As someone who’s uncomfortable with this change, you can choose to resist it or face that the times they are a-changing (or move to a country where this will never happen, can think of a few)

• All the arguments about “biology” are highly questionable - since when should seeing the outline of male genitalia (non-erect I assume) through clothes cause fight and flight to kick in as a biological response? if that is happening for some women, that for certain is a highly cultural and learned reaction, not something rooted in biology, further explanation as to this point shouldn’t be necessary..

Perhaps if Cafe Nero wants to do it's own version of hooter's then that's the route they will take.

All men should dress appropriately for work. Identifying as trans does not give men a right to indecently expose themselves.

Agree with everything you said.

I also find it hard to believe that they weren't wearing an apron with their hair pulled back.

It's a froth-inducer.

Like someone said, don’t go to the ballet, look at professional bicyclists or even rowers then. Transphobes like you have an expiration date, and the younger generations will look back and laugh and cry, so enjoy your heyday while you have it.

If I went to the ballet, where ballet dancers wear leggings, I wouldn't be surprised to see men in leggings. If I went to view sports, where men wear Lycra, I wouldn't be surprised to see men in tight Lycra.

Guess where I would be surprised (and pissed off) to see men (regardless of how they identify) serving me coffee/food with their outlined tackle in full show - fucking Costa. And any other public place where this would be highly inappropriate. I couldn't give a fuck how they identified.

What part of 'inappropriate' are you not getting? Or are you just wanting to fall over yourself with accusations of transphobia.

Try harder!

@Goldfishonabike so do you therefore think it’s ok for all male staff from now on at Nero or Costa to wear skinny leggings/tights with short tops and cock and balls on display?
I don’t think so. I think you mean only certain people don’t you?

I should say, not every “regular” male member of staff but every other male member of staff.

What would the shop’s policy be with regards an ordinary male dressing in skintight leggings with tackle on show? Would they consider that acceptable, sexual harassment perhaps or maybe just inappropriate.

I think this should be the basis of your complaint. No one should be wearing leggings that show their cock and balls. I think they would uphold a complaint for this against a regular male member of staff.

I will never get the 'transwomen are not the problem. It's MEN! MEN are the problem you stupid women transphobes! Not men in dresses no no no, just MEN!'

I despair.

I agree with this actually. As long as the daft bloke in a women's outfit isn't hurting anyone, let him crack on. We used to laugh about stuff like this, not be frightened at it. The outrage needs to be at male inmates in womens prisons, male athletes on women sports teams etc. Gaslighting in court where women are forced to complain about being raped by a woman, not man. Appropriation is also something to be outraged by, a trans woman leading a women's refuge or representing women.
The barista looked a plonker, no doubt, but no is traumatised by seeing the outline of a dick (don't go to the ballet or an 80s rock concert if you don't agree - does anyone remember David Bowie in Labyrinth btw - I couldn't take my eyes off the screen 😳)

Not a trans person in tights. Probably the least likely to be dangerous to women.

Not accurate. According to MoJ statistics the number of transwomen incarcerated for sex crimes is higher than the average proportion of males. It seems that TWs are more likely to commit sexual crimes than the average man.

I’m not saying it isn’t a bit annoying to dress like that.

It’s not annoying. OP wasn’t annoyed, she had a strong and perfectly understandable reaction based on evolutionary biology. Stop minimising this, please. Dressing in such a way as to show your genitalia in a café is a transgressive act — transgressive because the social contract here in the UK is that in cafes men and women don’t dress in a way that draws attention to genitalia. It’s different on the beach, in clubs or at the ballet.

So they're wearing tight trousers. Erm, okay.

They’re wearing tight leggings and displaying their genitalia at the kind of height where a customer would get an eyeful, while also telling the world they are a woman via their badge, make-up etc. Shades of suck-my-girl-dick, surely?

You should try going to Germany to do a bit of mixed gender sauna, you’d maybe develop a more chill attitude to body parts then.

It’s sex, not gender. And please stop calling other women prudes/ naive/ pearl-clutchers, Cool Girl. It’s absolutely not acceptable to tell other women they just need to reset their boundaries to suit yours. You sound like a gaslighting man.

to be genuine: I’d also not love seeing that,

Every time I see someone declare themselves to be genuine, or say ‘I’m going to be honest with you’ and similar I assume they’re not. Because otherwise they wouldn’t feel the need to say it.

goldfish, I skimmed your wibble & you seem to have misunderstood the OP, me, the reference to Ricky Gervais, your own writings & the whole point of the thread.

Suffice it to say I will not be replying to you beyond this.

tough call, what is the more discrediting, quoting Ricky Gervais or Taylor Swift..in terms of being transphobic, guess we know what side each is on though...and to everyone who said yes you can care about global warming and child poverty and ahem... women's rights????? all at the same time, that' right, except, in this instance, doesn't seem OP cares about other people much, but mainly about her own discomfort at people not conforming to gender stereotypes while serving her coffee and how very rude is that, too! ; )

I bet she was petrified fearing the barista would leap over the counter and begin molesting her in broad daylight. And no, I will not check myself, I have been assaulted TWICE, as I mentioned earlier, and both times were by stereotypical men. I lay the blame for those assaults squarely at the door of toxic masculinity and its norms of women being the property of men and men having to behave in certain macho ways (and certainly not wear tights, ever! in fact, those men would likely be right there with the OP, wanting to witch hunt that barista..) And of course I don't know the OP at all, but she hasn't mentioned any trauma from her past of being molested by a trans person, or any person at all, in fact.

And since so many of you are so keen on statistics, then why don't you look up what gender the majority of people who assault women identify as? I may of course be mistaken, but I THINK you will find most people who assault women are, in fact, male identifying men.

I am not saying some trans women do not assault women (and men) obviously that does happen, but to suggest that is a widespread problem is incorrect transphobic fear mongering and diverting the focus from the real enemy of women's rights: patriarchy and stereotypical gender roles, not baristas in tights.

Same here @Maray1967

As soon as the OP described Caffe Nero bloke I had a mental image of Isla Bryson.

goldfish: 'if truly [sic] have time enough on your hands to go and make some stranger miserable because you laid eyes on his penis for a few seconds...'

Ricky Gervais had an answer to this.😂

Having to participate in someone else’s sexual fetish without your consent is, quite understandably upsetting.

God sakes, you really do miss the point. The mind fuck this causes when a visibly male person is dressed and acting like a female while displaying obviously male genitalia is extremely uncomfortable, as is being made to participate in someone else’s sexual fetish without your consent.

Well done for following up @Acunningruse

Good on you OP, it sounds like they took your complaint seriously and have dealt with it accordingly.

To me it's not the feeling of being threatened at all by this or these kinds of people. It's down to being inappropriate in public, whether that's dress or something else.
I'm sorry but it's the deliberate pro-activity of it that annoys me. "This is me, I'll do what I like and if you say anything, you're a bully and a trans-ist".
I have two trans friends, (both male to female, now both post op) but even before that, they didn't look out of place. And they certainly didn't waggle their bits around! They dressed as appropriately as they could for the stage they were at! And tried to blend in as quietly as possible.
The person at the cafe sounds to me like an exhibitionist, rather than a genuine trans person. And I have seen plenty of those, it's like a fad rather than a true gender issue. It's attention seeking. Over exaggerating of mannerisms, inappropriate clothing - nothing to me about that shows a true reflection of what being trans actually is.
It sounds contrary, given what I've said so far, but to me, there are also only two genders. Don't get me wrong, I genuinely have every sympathy for anyone who feels like they were born in the wrong body. And good on them if they achieve peace and find happiness. I fully support that. But a man is still a man, a woman still a woman.
With the person in the cafe, it comes across as " because I can", nothing else.
Eddie Izzard is this, for a prime example. He has always professed to being a cross dresser. It started with just nail varnish, then that and skirts, then those and heels, add on blouses... He's now more and more towards displaying himself as a female, without any mention of trans leanings. And having seen him recently on tv, that is a typical case of "because he can" too! Mmm, how far can I push this?! And he looks ridiculous.
That's just my opinion.

Leggins in general should be banned. Don't want to see a camel toe either tbh. They're inappropriate with a short T-shirt in any workplace