Conversations about JK Rowling

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 2024-04-03T06:52:01+00:00

I'm friends with a group of women who are mainly based in the US and Canada, and all politically left leaning. I deliberately do not mention anything to do with gender because I know that they are all very TWAW and would be horrified to learn that I am not. A particular subset of this group are big fans of Harry Potter but by common consensus do not talk about JK Rowling because they're all so disappointed about her stance on this issue. Recently, however, one of them started a private conversation with me about JK Rowling. We had previously talked about the Cormoran Strike series and in particular about how Troubled Blood is not a transphobic book and the people claiming it is have clearly not read it. Then recently I sent her a message saying that the title of the next book has just been announced. Out of nowhere, she said she wished JK Rowling would stop being transphobic so everyone could just go back to being a fan. I'm fairly sure that my friend had sensed that my views aren't aligned with those of the rest of the group and was testing me. I didn't want to lie to my friend, and more importantly I didn't want to take the coward's way out and pretend that I also think JK Rowling is a hateful bigot when she has been so brave in sticking her head above the parapet in front of the entire world on this issue. So I started by asking my friend whether she had actually read JK Rowling's essay. She replied that she had skim read it, but really, she was just appalled by the whole thing. I said I had read the whole thing because when people started accusing her of transphobia I wanted to find out what she had actually said, and judge for myself. I said I didn't agree that she was transphobic, but that she has serious concerns about women's rights and child safeguarding. I also said that in the UK, the idea that women should have some single sex spaces and sports is one that most people support. My friend said she actually agreed with that. My friend then said that whilst there might be valid arguments to be made around single sex spaces, the way JK Rowling has expressed her views has been really harmful, especially given the context of the way LGBTQ people are being treated in many parts of America. I responded by saying that context is important. JK Rowling doesn't live in America, she lives in the UK. In the UK we have no political equivalent of the American right wing, because even our Conservatives are more akin to the US Democrats on both economic and social issues. JK Rowling does not live in America, she doesn't vote in their elections and she's not responsible for who the American people elect to represent them or what they do. She is, however, entitled to have an opinion and to speak about what is happening in her own country, i.e. the UK and more specifically, Scotland. I then went on to list some of the most concerning things that have happened in the UK and particularly in Scotland over the last few years, with a particular focus on prisons, rape crisis services and Maya Forstater. I told her about what had led to JK Rowling deciding to set up and solely fund Beira's place, and that trans activists had been trying to have it forced to accept male survivors or shut down. I told her all about Mridul Wadhwa, quoting extensively from the horse's mouth. I also said that JK Rowling is far from the only person to be concerned about irreversible medical interventions being performed on trans identifying children, and expressed my private belief that puberty blockers are likely to be banned across Europe within a few years, given that the UK and France are now following the lead of the Scandinavian countries in putting the brakes on some of these practices, because the long term evidence in favour of them is really not good. She said she understood all of that but wished that JK Rowling had not chosen this hill to die on, and that even though these issues are important, she feels that the harm caused to the LGBTQ community has been greater than the small benefit to other groups from speaking out. I said I disagreed, and that for female prisoners and rape survivors, as well as children who will now hopefully get more ethically responsible healthcare, these are not small matters. I finished by picking up on a particular point she had made about JK Rowling suggesting she "doesn't believe trans women are women" and I said that I think the "trans women are women" mantra is actually really harmful to women because we all have our arms twisted to say it, and then the fact that we have said it is used as a justification for taking away our single sex rape crisis support or letting male athletes compete in our sports. I said that a few years ago I would have said that trans women are women but now I think it's a lot more complicated than that and if she's being honest with herself, so does she. She never replied to that last message but she is continuing to engage with me in the group chat. I am not planning to talk to her about this issue again unless she specifically brings it up. But I privately believe that the message hit home and now she doesn't know what to do with it.

Account734 · 03/08/2025 18:20

Well done!! Sounds like you were calm and reasonable and let the facts speak for themselves. I like the post by the journalist on X who was tasked with writing an article on JK Rowling's transphobia, after researching it she came back and said she couldn't write the article because she hadn't found anything JK said that was actually transphobic.

lechiffre55 · 03/08/2025 18:07

@MissScarletInTheBallroom
I suspect your friend doesn't do a lot of thinking for herself. I'm betting she likes other people to do the thinking for her, and let her know what her views are.

FarriersGirl · 03/08/2025 18:03

Thanks for the update OP. I think its important to remember that we can chip away at this ideology bit by bit on a personal level as well as the big stories/cases that get a lot of media coverage. A bit of gardening here and there and an advance order for JKR's latest book - can't wait for that to come out!!

SidewaysOtter · 03/08/2025 15:53

That's a good update, OP!

From your original post: Out of nowhere, she said she wished JK Rowling would stop being transphobic so everyone could just go back to being a fan...She said she understood all of that but wished that JK Rowling had not chosen this hill to die on, and that even though these issues are important...

I've seen this so many times, someone very nearly makes it but then decides they can't bear to "switch sides" and they flee back into the warm embrace of Correct Think. Shades of Mary Warren in The Crucible running back to the girls in court after she nearly comes clean on it all being a lie. They just can't bear to accept the idea that the tenets of the ideology they've swallowed just don't add up.

theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw · 03/08/2025 14:48

I keep getting sent links to stuff explaining in tedious detail how jkr's works are of terribly low literary merit. Its authors are clearly very upset about how successful she is. Sucks to be them.

GinaWhoLikesADrink · 03/08/2025 14:13

@MissScarletInTheBallroom
That's good to hear!

I've not read Harry Potter and not that interested in JKR. When my friend called JKR "transphobic" recently, I asked her what JKR had said or done that was transphobic. Unsurprisingly, my friend had not a clue. She works in a TWAW institution and I don't think she'd be able to handle the truth.

Igmum · 03/08/2025 13:49

What good news. We are definitely in the sane majority.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/07/2025 12:07

Another positive update. Just shows how the coercive control / bullying aspects of this ideology work in imposing this on society. So pleased you got that feedback

Original poster

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 30/07/2025 11:51

Someone else has bumped their own old thread to update everyone about the TERF conversations they have had in real life, which has inspired me to do likewise.

Back in November I received a LinkedIn message out of the blue from a member of the WhatsApp group.

She said she had been unaware of my unceremonious cancelling because she had taken a break from the group at the time and did not come back until a few weeks later when the conversation had moved on.

She said she wanted to let me know that she completely disagreed with the others and was in my corner. She also said that she was cutting ties with most of them herself as she thought there was a nasty, bitchy atmosphere in the group, which for all their chat about being the bestest baby bumper group in history, is actually pretty intolerant of anyone who doesn't toe the party line. She said that as a practising Christian whose husband is in the military, she felt she was increasingly coming under attack by the most political members of the group, who had gone absolutely batshit since Trump was re-elected. (She isn't a Trump supporter herself, but felt that anyone with religious beliefs or a military connection was being subjected to particular scrutiny for signs of thought crimes.) And she also said that she thinks the woman in the group whose son has long hair and likes pretty things is laying the foundations to trans him pretty soon, and that she thinks it's an attention seeking thing.

She said she wasn't the only person in the group to feel the way she does, and some of the others also felt very uncomfortable about the way I had been treated, including the group admin who was the one who actually removed me from the group.

Anyway, we had a pretty long conversation over a couple of days, and left it at that. But we like each other's Instagram photos quite often.

I was glad she reached out. (None of the others have.)

OP posts:

rainontherooftop · 16/04/2024 17:26

You have inspired me OP.

I've not been brave enough to bring up the discussion with some friends up to now. I'm seeing one of them on the weekend and I've decided I am going to.

AnnieRegent · 16/04/2024 15:57

Late to this, but I just wanted to echo what everyone else has said @MissScarletInTheBallroom - I’m well impressed with how you handled this. I remember your older threads about this group. I’m really sorry that it ended this way.

I think you’re spot on with the analysis of left-leaning US women. Agree that the consequences for them of leaning more GC are huge and so a lot of people just refuse to think about it (same as with your best friend). I wonder what it will take for this to change. I wonder if the current events will actually have any effect on the other side of the Atlantic.

My best friend is similar to your second friend - she is concerned about gender stereotyping as a cause of kids saying they’re trans but she also rolls her eyes a bit at some women’s desire for single sex spaces. But I think she’s more or less with us…

Anyway, well done again. Am dead impressed.

Original poster

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/04/2024 10:19

Yesterday I had a chat with one of my two best friends about this.

One of the two insists that TWAW. She's 100% coming at it from a "be kind" perspective and probably also the perspective that she works in a captured sector and doesn't want to have to contemplate the consequences for her of deciding not to believe in this stuff. But she knows my views and we generally just agree to disagree.

The other is a funny one. Pretty sure she doesn't believe that TWAW but she also really doesn't care about single sex spaces or sports and sometimes I find her quite lacking in empathy when I talk about women who need them. I think her position is less that trans women should be able to self ID into those spaces and more that she doesn't really see why we need them. So anyway, she's not team trans but she's not really team TERF either. Yesterday I told her about getting kicked out of my parenting group and her response was that they are dickheads and JKR is "superb".

OP posts:

Reallybadidea · 07/04/2024 12:47

@MissScarletInTheBallroom just wanted to say how much I admire your bravery and eloquence.

I actually think that what you say about American political tribalism holds true for the UK side of the argument too, at least in the sense that being pro-trans is seen as the 'kind' stance to take.

I'm very fortunate with my friends that the vast majority are able to see the reality of the TRA arguments. Not so fortunate with my close family. I would love to have an ounce of your ability to argue calmly and logically, I just end up in a hot, angry mess if I try to articulate my feelings.

Original poster

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 07/04/2024 12:12

Abhannmor · 07/04/2024 11:52

I am critical of gender ideology precisely because I am a socialist. Which simply means I would like to improve the Material conditions of the working people. Class is the last taboo.
I don't see how anyone who spends their time and energy arguing about pink 🧠 and gendered souls can call themselves a socialist. They should start another party to promote these metaphysical ideas.

Yes, I agree. These are all well educated, privileged women. I'm not aware of anyone in the group who didn't go to college, for example, and the only ones who seem to be renters live in expensive parts of major cities. There's quite a lot of conspicuous consumerism in the group. And of course, America is the ultimate capitalist society. They bemoan their lack of abortion rights and maternity leave and the fucked up nature of their healthcare system, but ultimately they are a part of that system and that culture. They'd probably consider the Tories to be quite socialist.

They dismiss JKR as a billionaire who punches down on vulnerable people, but I doubt whether any of them has ever experienced the kind of poverty and precariousness that she did as a single mum on benefits who had left an abusive marriage.

Perhaps if American feminism was a bit less Judith Butler and a bit more JK Rowling, women there would have more rights.

OP posts:

turbonerd · 07/04/2024 12:08

JFDIYOLO · 07/04/2024 09:54

👏👏👏
JKR's latest:

'I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.

I don’t believe a woman is more or less of a woman for having sex with men, women, both or not wanting sex at all. I don’t think a woman is more or less of a woman for having a buzz cut and liking suits and ties, or wearing stilettos and mini dresses, for being black, white or brown, for being six feet tall or a little person, for being kind or cruel, angry or sad, loud or retiring. She isn't more of a woman for featuring in Playboy or being a surrendered wife, nor less of a woman for designing space rockets or taking up boxing. What makes her a woman is the fact of being born in a body that, assuming nothing has gone wrong in her physical development (which, as stated above, still doesn't stop her being a woman), is geared towards producing eggs as opposed to sperm, towards bearing as opposed to begetting children, and irrespective of whether she's done either of those things, or ever wants to.

Womanhood isn't a mystical state of being, nor is it measured by how well one apes sex stereotypes. We are not the creatures either porn or the Bible tell you we are. Femaleness is not, as trans woman Andrea Chu Long wrote, ‘an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes,’ nor are we God’s afterthought, sprung from Adam’s rib.

Women are provably subject to certain experiences because of our female bodies, including different forms of oppression, depending on the cultures in which we live. When trans activists say 'I thought you didn't want to be defined by your biology,' it’s a feeble and transparent attempt at linguistic sleight of hand. Women don't want to be limited, exploited, punished, or subject to other unjust treatment because of their biology, but our being female is indeed defined by our biology. It's one material fact about us, like having freckles or disliking beetroot, neither of which are representative of our entire beings, either. Women have billions of different personalities and life stories, which have nothing to do with our bodies, although we are likely to have had experiences men don't and can't, because we belong to our sex class.

Some people feel strongly that they should have been, or wish to be seen as, the sex class into which they weren't born. Gender dysphoria is a real and very painful condition and I feel nothing but sympathy for anyone who suffers from it. I want them to be free to dress and present themselves however they like and I want them to have exactly the same rights as every other citizen regarding housing, employment and personal safety. I do not, however, believe that surgeries and cross-sex hormones literally turn a person into the opposite sex, nor do I believe in the idea that each of us has a nebulous ‘gender identity’ that may or might not match our sexed bodies. I believe the ideology that preaches those tenets has caused, and continues to cause, very real harm to vulnerable people.

I am strongly against women's and girls' rights and protections being dismantled to accommodate trans-identified men, for the very simple reason that no study has ever demonstrated that trans-identified men don't have exactly the same pattern of criminality as other men, and because, however they identify, men retain their advantages of speed and strength. In other words, I think the safety and rights of girls and women are more important than those men's desire for validation.'

Just one more time this

Abhannmor · 07/04/2024 11:52

I am critical of gender ideology precisely because I am a socialist. Which simply means I would like to improve the Material conditions of the working people. Class is the last taboo.
I don't see how anyone who spends their time and energy arguing about pink 🧠 and gendered souls can call themselves a socialist. They should start another party to promote these metaphysical ideas.

moderate · 07/04/2024 11:32

I am impressed and inspired, @MissScarletInTheBallroom, by your writing clarity and calmness in the face of such exasperating provocation. I usually descend into “WTAF?!!” which probably doesn’t convince as many bystanders.

How asinine their arguments are, though! 50 intelligent priests disagreed with Galileo, yet the earth still goes round the sun.

Original poster

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 07/04/2024 11:08

EdithStourton · 07/04/2024 10:36

JKR is utterly epic.

OP, I'm sorry your former friend wasn't prepared to have civilised discussion. That's on her, not on you - which you know.

As for the knowing whether you're right or not... Having 'am I the baddy' moments is a good thing, because it keeps your mind open to new evidence. But many people hate doubt, and hate going against the herd.

I suspect there will be a lot of reverse ferreting in a few years time.

Yep. I'm not the one who isn't having any "am I the baddie?" moments.

When she said that the fact that 50 intelligent women disagree with me and that should tell me that I am wrong, that if I listen to them I might learn something, I could have cried.

Does she seriously think I have not considered their point of view? Does she not understand how much I would prefer them to be right, how much easier and more comfortable it would be for me to agree with them?

The fact that I have examined their point of view from every angle, over and over again, trying in vain to find the key thing that I have been missing which explains why I have got it wrong, and I still can't find any way to agree with it, and that I am even less convinced by their position than I was when I started trying to understand it, should tell HER something.

I did listen to them, and all I learned was that they have no idea who they're even vilifying or what their arguments actually are, and they don't want to know. "Bigot this, TERF that, my sister is trans" is all they've got.

She was personally offended about the fact that I described her friends' behaviour as pathetic.

But frankly I think it's far more offensive that she thinks I'm just sticking my fingers in my ears and refusing to listen to her friends' arguments because I'm determined to hate trans people.

OP posts:

EdithStourton · 07/04/2024 10:36

JKR is utterly epic.

OP, I'm sorry your former friend wasn't prepared to have civilised discussion. That's on her, not on you - which you know.

As for the knowing whether you're right or not... Having 'am I the baddy' moments is a good thing, because it keeps your mind open to new evidence. But many people hate doubt, and hate going against the herd.

I suspect there will be a lot of reverse ferreting in a few years time.

Ellysa · 07/04/2024 09:58

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 09:02

I hear reports of at least one pregnancy in California that is the result of a women being raped in jail.

It sounds like you've done really well raising the issues in a measured way, OP. I think as a society we got into this mess over a long period of time, and it often takes a bit if time to think about the issues- actually think, not just chant the mantras and repeat platitudes. What is needed is for people to have those pat statements gently challenged, and them space for them to think it through for themselves.

Personally I think a woman getting raped in prison suggests that the 'right side of history' has gone horribly wrong.

I hope the woman who was raped and impregnated while in prison sues the Californian state for the full cost of raising that child, including university fees and living costs, and also healthcare for both of them including an amount to reflect the inevitable damage done to the mother’s body by the pregnancy, plus an amount for childcare and another amount reflecting the woman’s reduced career choices.

If I was her lawyer I’d be suing for a very very high amount.

JFDIYOLO · 07/04/2024 09:54

👏👏👏
JKR's latest:

'I believe a woman is a human being who belongs to the sex class that produces large gametes. It’s irrelevant whether or not her gametes have ever been fertilised, whether or not she’s carried a baby to term, irrelevant if she was born with a rare difference of sexual development that makes neither of the above possible, or if she’s aged beyond being able to produce viable eggs. She is a woman and just as much a woman as the others.

I don’t believe a woman is more or less of a woman for having sex with men, women, both or not wanting sex at all. I don’t think a woman is more or less of a woman for having a buzz cut and liking suits and ties, or wearing stilettos and mini dresses, for being black, white or brown, for being six feet tall or a little person, for being kind or cruel, angry or sad, loud or retiring. She isn't more of a woman for featuring in Playboy or being a surrendered wife, nor less of a woman for designing space rockets or taking up boxing. What makes her a woman is the fact of being born in a body that, assuming nothing has gone wrong in her physical development (which, as stated above, still doesn't stop her being a woman), is geared towards producing eggs as opposed to sperm, towards bearing as opposed to begetting children, and irrespective of whether she's done either of those things, or ever wants to.

Womanhood isn't a mystical state of being, nor is it measured by how well one apes sex stereotypes. We are not the creatures either porn or the Bible tell you we are. Femaleness is not, as trans woman Andrea Chu Long wrote, ‘an open mouth, an expectant asshole, blank, blank eyes,’ nor are we God’s afterthought, sprung from Adam’s rib.

Women are provably subject to certain experiences because of our female bodies, including different forms of oppression, depending on the cultures in which we live. When trans activists say 'I thought you didn't want to be defined by your biology,' it’s a feeble and transparent attempt at linguistic sleight of hand. Women don't want to be limited, exploited, punished, or subject to other unjust treatment because of their biology, but our being female is indeed defined by our biology. It's one material fact about us, like having freckles or disliking beetroot, neither of which are representative of our entire beings, either. Women have billions of different personalities and life stories, which have nothing to do with our bodies, although we are likely to have had experiences men don't and can't, because we belong to our sex class.

Some people feel strongly that they should have been, or wish to be seen as, the sex class into which they weren't born. Gender dysphoria is a real and very painful condition and I feel nothing but sympathy for anyone who suffers from it. I want them to be free to dress and present themselves however they like and I want them to have exactly the same rights as every other citizen regarding housing, employment and personal safety. I do not, however, believe that surgeries and cross-sex hormones literally turn a person into the opposite sex, nor do I believe in the idea that each of us has a nebulous ‘gender identity’ that may or might not match our sexed bodies. I believe the ideology that preaches those tenets has caused, and continues to cause, very real harm to vulnerable people.

I am strongly against women's and girls' rights and protections being dismantled to accommodate trans-identified men, for the very simple reason that no study has ever demonstrated that trans-identified men don't have exactly the same pattern of criminality as other men, and because, however they identify, men retain their advantages of speed and strength. In other words, I think the safety and rights of girls and women are more important than those men's desire for validation.'

YouJustDoYou · 07/04/2024 09:52

I watched a youtube video recently by a transman who was stating that "JK Rowling is causing serious violence to poor transwomen who are just trying to live their lives in peace" etc, all the comments were in support of this and how horrible she is/how bigoted/how transphobic. I mean...they were literally defending the feelings of convicted rapists and paedophiles because THAT'S what matter more than female safety. It would be laughable if it wasn;t as serious as a heart attack.

stickygotstuck · 07/04/2024 09:49

OP, just wanted to say well done on your integrity, patience on the face of your former group's fingers in ears stance, and righful anger at their lack of will to understand.

On the issue of 'psychological safety', I find myslef getting impatient at its very mention. My ears pick up and my reaction is almost always 'that phrase does not meant what you think it means!!'

Original poster

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 07/04/2024 09:46

Skyellaskerry · 07/04/2024 09:31

I don’t understand it either, that my views on this one issue seem so opposite to the left policies I’ve connected with all my life. I am quite sure, sadly, that I would have followed suit had I not applied my own critical thinking after reading JKR as I wondered what all the fuss was about. I can see how it happens. I might well have got there anyway without JKR but was glad I looked into it more and made my own mind up.

Show quote history

For me, JKR's intervention was what made me apply the Occam's Razor principle.

Which is more likely?

The world's best loved children's author, lifelong Labour supporter and feminist, who has consistently been on the "progressive" side of every political argument, wrote a series of books with a strong anti bullying and bigotry theme and has given countless millions to charitable causes, has suddenly been radicalised by the same religious conservatives who tried to ban her books in the 1990s into hating an oppressed and vulnerable minority.

Or... There's more to it and maybe we should listen to her point of view.

OP posts:

Skyellaskerry · 07/04/2024 09:31

Muthaofcats · 07/04/2024 07:20

This was such a good listen - I mentioned I was listening to it to a friend and didn’t even say what I had concluded I just wanted to understand better - and my friend said the fact I was even listening to it was offensive and that I even wanted to talk about j k Rowling was upsetting her as she is a ‘hate speaker’. She said jk Rowling should be cancelled and destroyed for the things she’d said but that Diane Abbott should be forgiven for what she said about Jewish people because she had ‘said sorry’. She said she hadn’t actually read the essay as she didn’t need to.

she then shut me down saying she didn’t feel psychologically safe talking about this and left me feeling ashamed and furious and we’ve never spoken about it again.

we’ve been friends since we were kids so I’m not about to cut ties but felt very disappointed that the ‘liberal left’ now means furiously cancelling and shaming anyone who disagrees with you. It feels so bigoted and the opposite of what I grew up thinking it meant to be liberal or lefty.

Show quote history

I don’t understand it either, that my views on this one issue seem so opposite to the left policies I’ve connected with all my life. I am quite sure, sadly, that I would have followed suit had I not applied my own critical thinking after reading JKR as I wondered what all the fuss was about. I can see how it happens. I might well have got there anyway without JKR but was glad I looked into it more and made my own mind up.