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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Emma Hardy suing David Lloyd Gyms over trans policy

255 replies

flyingbuttress43 · 31/01/2024 15:36

Believed to be the first time in the UK that a service organisation is being sued
(as opposed to cases being taken to employment tribunals ). The case is likely to come to court late this year or early next year. She is also active in her home area of York in establishing what exactly is local NHS/councils policies on the issue and warning them of the potential risks of their trans inclusive policies. NB: she says she was told by the head of biology at York University that sex was on a spectrum.......

Why I'm suing David Lloyd Gyms for Failing to Provide Single Sex Changing Rooms.

Emma Hardy talks to Peter Whittle about why she is suing David Lloyd Gyms over their policy of allowing people born male to use female changing rooms in whic...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU5pVvz9FTI

OP posts:
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11
SidewaysOtter · 02/02/2024 11:39

Best of luck, @HardyEM

Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 02/02/2024 11:38

Good luck Emma and thank you.

I've just popped in on my lunch break expecting to have an article with the evidence of Bannatyne saying his gyms are trans exclusive to read but it seems Dad has forgotten to send it.

BezMills · 02/02/2024 11:29

good luck Emma 🌹

Froodwithatowel · 02/02/2024 11:06

Very best of luck to you Emma.

A question I'd also be asking, with all due innocence, is where women are supposed to go if they are unable due to belief, culture, disability or trauma to use a mixed sex space?

Or is the gym exclusionary towards those protected characteristics, and only selectively 'inclusive'? In which case this should be transparent and clearly labelled as such.

Obviously women cannot be expected to disclose such very sensitive data to staff - and who on the staff is qualified to pick up the pieces of the issues that such a disclosure to a stranger in a public place may cause - and it must be assumed the gym hasn't thought through how they might be responsible for receiving such sensitive data and storing it because that is a minefield of its own.

As you cannot tell or require women to state whether they require single sex facilities for those protected characteristics, the responsibility (unless you have chosen to openly exclude women of those groups) is to provide this alongside a range of other facilities so that women can select the one that works for them. It's rather like a GRC works.

Why yes, you will have the occasional male who on principle won't use a mixed sex women's space and will want, for his own reasons, to use the female only space to prove that there is no territory that he cannot control. However it is then the responsibility of the gym to police that boundary and if necessary warn individual members that they have the alternative of a sex based space or a mixed sex space, they do not need and cannot reasonably expect to have all the spaces, and by so doing exclude some women. And a member that is unwilling to respect the needs and access of other members can then choose between doing so or having their membership rescinded.

Yes, everyone will be able to tell.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2024 11:05

Good luck Emma Flowers

HardyEM · 02/02/2024 10:58

Thank you all for the feedback. I agree I do need to be clearer about my claims (noted!).

My case is for Indirect Discrimination on the grounds of my Sex and Gender Critical Beliefs.

and

Breach of Contract, for being led to believe our changing rooms were single-sex.

I do not believe a man can become a woman.

I believe woman and girls are particularly disadvantaged by the presence of a man (irrespective of gender identity) when either party may be in a state of undress.

I believe a service provider must be transparent about the services they provide, in order that customers can make informed decisions.

Best wishes
Emma

SinnerBoy · 02/02/2024 10:44

lifeturnsonadime · Yesterday 15:18

Of course they are not trans exclusive. Trans people can still go. They can change in the rooms that match their sex class.

Well, of course, you are right. It's a typical piece of truth-twisting, exactly the same as the ones who claim to be prevented from participating in sports.

CormorantStrikesBack · 02/02/2024 09:34

Ikeasucks · 02/02/2024 09:21

isn there an adult only area in the female changing room? There is in ours

Not at my DL.

CormorantStrikesBack · 02/02/2024 09:34

theilltemperedclavecinist · 02/02/2024 09:23

Didn't this case arise because the claimant wanted to cancel without penalty/receive a refund and public acknowledgement, when she found out that DL doesn't provide women's changing rooms, which is a material disadvantage to her that she was not warned about? So it's a contract case, but will have to bring in equality law. I guess they can't just pay her off because of all the other members who would have the same cause of action.

Yes, that’s my understanding. DL are notoriously hardball about people trying to wriggle out of contracts.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 02/02/2024 09:23

Didn't this case arise because the claimant wanted to cancel without penalty/receive a refund and public acknowledgement, when she found out that DL doesn't provide women's changing rooms, which is a material disadvantage to her that she was not warned about? So it's a contract case, but will have to bring in equality law. I guess they can't just pay her off because of all the other members who would have the same cause of action.

Ikeasucks · 02/02/2024 09:21

isn there an adult only area in the female changing room? There is in ours

Ikeasucks · 02/02/2024 09:19

I’m a member too and i remember a female staff member coming round the female changing 3 different times to warn the women there that a male worker would be coming through soon so that they could ensure they were dressed. But now it seems they don’t mind a man being present as long as he says he is a women

SaffronSpice · 02/02/2024 08:47

Haldane confirmed the status quo and confirmed in law that trans women with a GRC are of the female sex in law.

But only some of the time. Haldane and Dorrian confirmed that the GRC does not always mean they are the female sex in law - not even within the EA.

Justme56 · 02/02/2024 07:18
  • exceptions not exemptions
Justme56 · 02/02/2024 06:52

She has every right to bring a case of indirect discrimination. If you offer a service to females and then as result of your policy it prevents some females access (eg because of allowing bio males in) then that is ID. The opposite way round can also be brought by a TW if they were denied access - it works both ways. Either could bring cases. It’s up the courts to decide. What DL will have to do is justify their lack of making their policy known and very likely why they have not introduced the SSE exemptions considering there are grounds to do so based on privacy, dignity, etc. What makes it difficult for DL is that they have alternative changing rooms in place. At the AEA v EHRC the judge said that it was up to service users to bring cases against service providers and this is what she is doing.

aroundtheblock · 02/02/2024 05:08

Unfortunately there are some mums taking their sons into the female changing rooms and they are not being told it's rude to stare at women undressing.
I won't complain because DL Edinburgh have a really horrible misogynistic manager who allows men to intimidate women.

aroundtheblock · 02/02/2024 05:01

Saw a man in a wig in a towel in the women's changing rooms in Edinburgh. Two other women clocked him, were shocked, we all looked at each other and he smiled as he sat and watched the women. I felt really uncomfortable.
I don't want to complain because Edinburgh is so captured by gender ideology that I know the staff would just think I'm a horrible middle aged terf.
Delighted that DL are being taken to task for this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2024 00:37

That is why we have any single sex exceptions which permit the exclusion of any men at all. You don't appear to grasp this, but the deeply dishonest nature of your engagement with women on this issue makes me question whether you are posting in any kind of even handed, good faith way.

BezMills · 02/02/2024 00:36

I am sure why

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2024 00:35

I'm not sure why you appear to believe that women's privacy, dignity and safety can't constitute a legitimate aim. And excluding men is proportionate in many circumstances.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2024 00:27

The single sex exceptions apply to everyone without a GRC as per Haldane.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/02/2024 00:26

Haldane confirmed the status quo and confirmed in law that trans women with a GRC are of the female sex in law.

Yes @DadJoke as I acknowledged, which is why I brought it up. Why are you pretending I didn't say that? Please engage with my substantive point, that most of the men you call "trans women" don't have a GRC and are considered men under the EA?

DadJoke · 02/02/2024 00:07

I know perfectly well what the thread is about, but I can’t see any grounds for a suit. Hardy said “discrimination” but that’s vague.

@Ereshkigalangcleg Haldane confirmed the status quo and confirmed in law that trans women with a GRC are of the female sex in law. FWS lost. I mean, even FPW acknowledge that trans women can only be excluded for LAP.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/

The Equality Act 2010, right to single-sex spaces | Fair Play For Women

The Equality Act 2010 legally protects people in the UK from discrimination and is often used by trans-activists to claim that trans-identify

https://fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/

StephanieSuperpowers · 01/02/2024 19:41

There's a certain kind of man who takes his duty to inform the ladies super seriously.

WickedSerious · 01/02/2024 19:36

MissMissive · 01/02/2024 17:40

It’s like the poster on the Caroline Farrow threads.

Spooky isn't it?