How to respond: been asked what sex I was assigned at birth

What? At birth??

Does it matter?

I just thought cis meant that you identified as the same gender as your sex at birth

It presupposes a belief in gender identity ideology. If it didn't, and I am a "cis woman" as an actual woman rather than a male identifying as a woman, for me, as very much a non believer a "trans woman" would be a woman who identifies as a man. But that isn't what it means.

So saying there is just male and female sexes isn’t medically correct

Yes it is. DSDs aren't "sexes". Everyone is either male or female, however ambiguous to the observer.

I’m so sorry, I’m not up to date with the movement in this language - no offence was meant at all. I just thought cis meant that you identified as the same gender as your sex at birth, not that you ascribed to a specific gender role within that. What does gc stand for? And your last sentence…can you unpack that for me? How is gender identity and women’s oppression linked? Genuine questions!

So, what question would you ask Caster Semenya, who was 'assigned' female, had female looking genitalia, considers herself female, and is actually genetically and morphologically male: literally the only difference from any other man is the absence of the penis and scrotum (meaning medical intervention is needed in order to father children)? And what question would you ask a woman (?) with CAIS?

I’m aware that sex chromosomes determine your genetic sex (’genetic sex’ is the term used for which chromosomes you have). This is distinct to phenotypic sex, which is mostly your genitalia. Most of the time your genetic sex is XX or XY and you become either phenotypically female or male. However, neither of those is a given. There are several variations to XX and XY, chromosomally, and a whole range of development phenotypically.

So saying there is just male and female sexes isn’t medically correct - I mean, you should really ensure the HCP treating you is very aware if you are an ‘other’ as any of those variations can lead to very different clinical advice.

However, this is the exact problem. When you dig into the intricacies just around sex alone, and then try to come up with a form of words that everyone understands and leads to the best health outcomes, it’s way more complex than ‘are you male or female’? We’ve not even added self-identified gender into there yet.

So the question that relly needs answering is ‘what exactly is it that HCPs need to know to give the right clinical advice?’ Is it your genetic sex? Is it your phenotypic sex when you were born? Given most people’s phenotypic sex at birth matches their genetic sex, probs that one, especially as that’s the one that is observed and noted. But you’d still need an option that allows you to flag if you’re one of the few where that doesn’t apply. What does the differing ranges in blood test results for the majority of those born phenotypically male and female, for example, rely on? Because that is the information that the HCP needs to know.

This is where I lost the will to live when this all came up at my old workplace. I was not involved in determining the phrase, it was set long before, but when questioning it and trying to see if there was a different way of putting it that would protect the most people…it’s not as easy or clear cut as anyone might want to believe.

You mean in the research done by Mendel on peas?

Can we not use cis? Just because people are not trans they most certainly do no conform to sexist sex role gender stereotypes. Most here are gc. That means we find the term cis inaccurate and quite offensive as it relies on everyone having a gender identity and therefore womens oppression is their own fault.

’genetically-assigned traits’ is a phrase that is used in genetic research

😂😂😂😂😂

I totally agree but the assignment is based on observation so I try to pretend they mean which box on the form did the midwife assign from using their eyes!

But it is offensive because it implies this assignment should dictate your interests and personality as you grow which is bs.

When you ask about leaving people behind does that also include those who think god made the baby, and also put his son in a virgin (who later died and then came to life again). Or is it just gender fantasists that need to be pandered too?

No one is born wearing clothes and makeup.

If you were the result of IVF then sex would be determined in a Petri dish.

Genetics refers to genes not chromosomes.

There is no ‘other’ sex. Everyone is male or female.

Sex is not assigned

Sex is not assigned at conception either. Males carry 2 types of sperm, one with an x chromosome and one with a y. If the females egg receives another x the resulting individual is xx, and forms ovaries, and is female; if the egg receives a y, the individual is xy, forms testes, and is male.

The chromosome carries a gene that encodes a sex-determining factor, this factor organizes the development of secondary sex characteristics. At no point is there any assignation, just a wee gene tadpole swimming valiantly into an egg and getting stuck in it, boom sex determined.

By this reasoning, the OP shouldn’t even bother emailing the company then.

Change does happen. I see it every day. It takes sustained pressure and a willingness to compromise where necessary, even while you stick to your core principles.

I personally don’t understand why we can’t protect both women and trans people, though. I mean, Jesus, we don’t have to choose. But both sides of the culture war seems to make out that it’s one or the other.

There is a form of wording out there that ensures that the most number of people understand the question and are therefore given the correct clinical advice…but that also doesn’t exclude cis-males/females and is biologically correct.

There’ve been people on this thread that have advocated for letting people suffer worse health outcomes through misunderstanding. That’s nuts. We’re better than this.

I don’t ascribe to either ideology. There’s a third option and it would be really good if everyone can stop tearing each other down long enough to help each other find it. (If someone says ‘but they started it’ or ‘but they’re worse’ or ‘but you just don’t realise they’re trying to obliterate us’, I swear to god I will lose it…from the outside it is obvious that both sides feel like they are being put into an untenable and dangerous position…both are feeling attacked, marginalised and unsafe…if you feel this way then you know EXACTLY how the other side feels).

Why do we have to leave anyone behind?

"What genitals were you born with" is not necessarily going to help anyone properly interpret blood test results if the person has a dsd. They need to know if the person is male or female.

It's impossible to come up with a good brief wording for this as long as we have such fundamental disagreement about the meaning of the crucial word in the question ie sex. Alas.

Maybe it should be asked like the prisoners dilemma. "If a gender critical person was asked to say what sex you were, what would they say?"

A sorting hat, no?

The ideological stupidity on this thread from HCPs, no less, is breathtaking. And very scary.

😂😂😂😂no it's "observable" on scans ...

It's my understanding that this specific phrase comes not from genetics, but the opposite sense, people with DSDs where the doctor mistakenly "assigned" their sex as the wrong (genetic) sex due to their physical characteristics.

So even in this view, it's assigned at the point of conception and not birth then? And 'male' means exactly the same? So no need to change language into something much harder for people for whom English is not their first language, or have learning difficulties to understand?

Other than protecting people who want to lie to their healthcare provider?

Why wasn't it always called "assigned female at birth" then?

Like I said earlier - ‘genetically-assigned traits’ is a phrase that is used in genetic research. That’s one of the places where the word came from. It means something assigned to you by your genetic coding. Nobody ever meant that a human assigned it (unless we’re straying into eugenics and dear god, let’s not go there).

But that means writing to NHS England, lobbying DHSC, talking to the associations dedicated to healthcare comms professionals…they are the people to say, ‘hey, erm…this phrase is weird and incorrect…can we please work together to change it to something that is actually medically accurate but still understandable to the lay person?’

Lots of women have done this, but they are ignored.