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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How to respond: been asked what sex I was assigned at birth

294 replies

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 24/01/2024 17:53

I recently signed up to have blood tests privately (vitamin levels etc).

On the health questionnaire, one of the questions asked what sex I was assigned at birth.

Scientific company should surely do better than this. Not sure it is worth flagging up with them. I suppose, at least they didn't ask gender, but still.... Disappointing.

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SirChenjins · 25/01/2024 15:40

viridiano · 25/01/2024 15:33

The form is asking what your sex was at birth - I know that, you know that, we all know that.

This arguing is all about semantics and linguistics around what is a very difficult topic and hard to get right. HCP's are just trying to get accurate data.

Everyone knows what information this form is asking for.

Everyone knows? Where’s your proof of that?

You’re absolutely right, it’s semantics and linguistics - and from a health literacy pov it’s vital that clear, factual and unambiguous terminology and language is used. ‘Assigned at birth’ is not that.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 25/01/2024 15:39

viridiano · 25/01/2024 15:36

How clever of you waste time of busy healthcare professionals with your witty remarks.

Do you understand what “tempted” means? There is no indication that Craftycorvid has ever succumbed to this particular temptation.

viridiano · 25/01/2024 15:36

Craftycorvid · 25/01/2024 15:21

I’ve crossed out the offending descriptor and written my own before now. Also would be tempted to send a sarcastic note stating that you were assigned male but sadly they were out of stock in your parents’ preferred colour, so it was female for you. And let’s not get started on the budget range mum and dad could have been assigned…

How clever of you waste time of busy healthcare professionals with your witty remarks.

viridiano · 25/01/2024 15:33

The form is asking what your sex was at birth - I know that, you know that, we all know that.

This arguing is all about semantics and linguistics around what is a very difficult topic and hard to get right. HCP's are just trying to get accurate data.

Everyone knows what information this form is asking for.

Craftycorvid · 25/01/2024 15:21

I’ve crossed out the offending descriptor and written my own before now. Also would be tempted to send a sarcastic note stating that you were assigned male but sadly they were out of stock in your parents’ preferred colour, so it was female for you. And let’s not get started on the budget range mum and dad could have been assigned…

Comedycook · 25/01/2024 14:59

vorhees · 24/01/2024 19:15

What if it's a masculine woman who prefers stereotypical male clothing and haircuts and on the surface appears male but identifies as female still? You can't always observe gender

At birth our sex is observed.

Our future fashion choices are not.

Pippim · 25/01/2024 14:56

Sex is determined at conception by chromosomal make up.

Thank you to whoever quoted this. It's succinct and I shall use it wherever possible.

So many online forms don't give flexibility. If asked about gender I always tick other and in the text field I type "no gender but my sex is female. "

SirChenjins · 25/01/2024 14:42

The question is unanswerable - because no-one assigns a baby a sex.

Daisies12 · 25/01/2024 14:40

Circularargument · 24/01/2024 20:06

You answer the question. Really not hard. But you don't want to hear that, obviously.

This. And then find something interesting to do with your life.

SirChenjins · 25/01/2024 14:40

"Sex assigned at birth" refers to the process whereby a medical professional looks at your baby and decides if it's male or female

No medical professional decides if a baby is male or female - the baby is male or female, irrespective of what the health professional decides.

DadJoke · 25/01/2024 14:23

"Sex assigned at birth" refers to the process whereby a medical professional looks at your baby and decides if it's male or female, then notes it, which then appears on the birth certificate. The "assigned" rather than "observed" is a nod to transgender people.

TrainedByCatsToBeScathing · 25/01/2024 14:18

LaughingCat · 24/01/2024 19:36

Sorry, I don’t understand the question. Why are you upset? I work in healthcare communications so here’s the background.

  1. Lots of people, when asked their sex, give the gender they identify as instead
  2. Blood test results can have different ranges applicable to those born either male or female
  3. That confusion between what gender someone has told them and the sex-specific results can lead clinicians to give incorrect advice or make the wrong treatment decisions.

So…why? Why are you upset they want to know? It’s not about you…it’s about making sure that someone with a cervix who identifies as male doesn’t get ruled out for cervical cancer because they haven’t flipping told the doctor they have one.

What am I missing here?

So ask for sex and put a note explaining that medically it’s important to know what sex someone is. If they then chose to lie that’s on them.
You could also ask what gender they identify with if you want them to feel validated but that isn’t the purpose of health checking

newrubylane · 25/01/2024 14:07

LaughingCat · 25/01/2024 12:02

Love this link, thank you @SaffronSpice - it’s a really clear and easy breakdown on the biological definition of sex and why it is superior to the genetic/phenotypic definitions of sex. So much easier to understand (and I agree, that is absolutely the definition of sex, in and of itself)!

In there, when discussing genetic/phenotypic/gender types, it says: Some of these definitions might be useful in specific contexts, whether in social or medical situations, but they are not biological definitions for ‘sexes’, as they differ across time and space.

Which brings me back to what I’m trying to work out…what is it exactly that doctors are looking to find out? What is the underlying determinant that changes how a clinician should interpret a set of results? Is it the gamete production, the gene expression, the genital organs and associated hormone mechanisms that support those? Because that is what they need people to tell them. What is it that is useful in the medical context?

This seems to be overcomplicating the issue. Ask 'sex at birth' male/female (I know 'at birth' isnt perfect, but it's clear to most people, even those for whom English is a second language AND those who might be tempted to write down their gender what is being asked). And then if it might be at all relevant to treatment, ask 'have you ever been diagnosed with a disorder of sex development?' yes/no. And then they discuss it with you if necessary. No one's doing a complete diagnosis of the form, after all - or they shouldn't be!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/01/2024 13:42

Sorry that was to @LaughingCat

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/01/2024 13:42

If you’ve worked in comms, you know that’s what we do…get the experts to explain it to us so we can translate and ensure that non-experts can understand.

Yes, absolutely, no argument! You've taken lots of points on board, fair play to you for engaging. I think we often get frustrated on this board, sorry if I was snippy!

FrancescaContini · 25/01/2024 13:40

@itsmyp4rty

Yes. Every time. The only question is:

What is your sex? M / F

Any other question particularly in healthcare literature is meaningless. You may as well ask for star signs or preferred drink for all the relevance it has in a medical context.

LWSnow · 25/01/2024 13:38

If there's an "other" drop down to the what gender are you question. I always tick other and write an essay that I don't have a gender I have a sex which is female.

itsmyp4rty · 25/01/2024 12:30

Cross it all out and put female.

ChaToilLeam · 25/01/2024 12:28

Sex is determined at conception, observed at birth, and doesn’t depend on your feelings.

Germain Greer said it well:
"Female is real, and it's sex, and femininity is unreal, and it's gender.

For that to become the given identity of women is a profoundly disabling notion."

SaffronSpice · 25/01/2024 12:24

May be it might help if you could give us your definition of ‘phenotype’ (generally, not specifically in relation to sex). And your understanding of the relationship between genes and chromosomes.

SaffronSpice · 25/01/2024 12:15

a really clear and easy breakdown on the biological definition of sex and why it is superior to the genetic/phenotypic definitions of sex.

What do you mean by genetic/phenotypic definition of sex? These pathways lay out the genes involved (‘genetic’) which leads to the pathway to the development of each gamete type. This outcome is their phenotype. I am unclear how you suggest it does not include genetics and phenotype or how you define sex when those are the only things looked at? Are you suggesting sex should be defined by some metaphysical belief?

LaughingCat · 25/01/2024 12:02

SaffronSpice · 25/01/2024 08:52

If you are really interest in DSD then you might find the following charts of development pathways helpful. For those rare individuals with a DSD tests are typically done at birth and will include whole genome sequencing (not just karyotyping), ultrasound, MRI scans, blood work etc. Most DSD affect many body systems and you would likely not be dealing with typical blood ranges. That doesn’t STILL doesn’t mean they are some ‘other’ sex (there are still just two gamete types). It means they are male or female with a condition that affected their sex developmental pathway.

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/read/sex-development-charts

Love this link, thank you @SaffronSpice - it’s a really clear and easy breakdown on the biological definition of sex and why it is superior to the genetic/phenotypic definitions of sex. So much easier to understand (and I agree, that is absolutely the definition of sex, in and of itself)!

In there, when discussing genetic/phenotypic/gender types, it says: Some of these definitions might be useful in specific contexts, whether in social or medical situations, but they are not biological definitions for ‘sexes’, as they differ across time and space.

Which brings me back to what I’m trying to work out…what is it exactly that doctors are looking to find out? What is the underlying determinant that changes how a clinician should interpret a set of results? Is it the gamete production, the gene expression, the genital organs and associated hormone mechanisms that support those? Because that is what they need people to tell them. What is it that is useful in the medical context?

IShouldBeSoLurky · 25/01/2024 12:01

Surely the simple thing would be to just ask for ‘sex at birth’?

Whitefoxnight · 25/01/2024 11:40

LaughingCat · 24/01/2024 23:52

I’m aware that sex chromosomes determine your genetic sex (’genetic sex’ is the term used for which chromosomes you have). This is distinct to phenotypic sex, which is mostly your genitalia. Most of the time your genetic sex is XX or XY and you become either phenotypically female or male. However, neither of those is a given. There are several variations to XX and XY, chromosomally, and a whole range of development phenotypically.

So saying there is just male and female sexes isn’t medically correct - I mean, you should really ensure the HCP treating you is very aware if you are an ‘other’ as any of those variations can lead to very different clinical advice.

However, this is the exact problem. When you dig into the intricacies just around sex alone, and then try to come up with a form of words that everyone understands and leads to the best health outcomes, it’s way more complex than ‘are you male or female’? We’ve not even added self-identified gender into there yet.

So the question that relly needs answering is ‘what exactly is it that HCPs need to know to give the right clinical advice?’ Is it your genetic sex? Is it your phenotypic sex when you were born? Given most people’s phenotypic sex at birth matches their genetic sex, probs that one, especially as that’s the one that is observed and noted. But you’d still need an option that allows you to flag if you’re one of the few where that doesn’t apply. What does the differing ranges in blood test results for the majority of those born phenotypically male and female, for example, rely on? Because that is the information that the HCP needs to know.

This is where I lost the will to live when this all came up at my old workplace. I was not involved in determining the phrase, it was set long before, but when questioning it and trying to see if there was a different way of putting it that would protect the most people…it’s not as easy or clear cut as anyone might want to believe.

Yes there is. Sex observed at birth. But gender ideologies reject this for political reasons. There is no legitimate reason to take offense at this. It’s accurate.

Or sex recorded at birth.

They want to keep assigned as it fits their view that sex is malleable, on a spectrum, undefinable and can be changed through hormones and surgery so one can ‘become’ male and female.

We should not allow an unevidenced, contested and controversial political ideology, to change words used in healthcare like this.

Emotionalsupportviper · 25/01/2024 10:59

Throwawayme · 24/01/2024 17:54

Honestly I'd put a line through assigned and write observed. This nonsense pisses me off.

Same here.

Np-one gets "assigned" a sex - even individuals with DSD/VSD can have their sex identified chromosomally nowadays.

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