What's going on with Genspect?

Hmmm I’m quite conflicted about this.

Genspect is an amazing organisation but I think we need to remember that they are a therapeutic organisation, not a political group.

But I find the whole agp thing problematic. It’s largely these men who are fuelling the attempts to remove women’s boundaries.

So maybe if agp were acknowledged more openly and such men had counselling and therapy available to them to try to direct their sexuality into less self destructive and more other-oriented channels? If that’s even possible ….

So people are angry. What do they think should have happened - that Genspect refuse entry to him for not wearing "approved" masuline clothing?

It might be about "forcing" people to take part in his fetish (though I'm not sure exactly how he would do this if they decide not to), it might not. There's a whole lot of confident, abolutist assumption about somebody else's internal psychology going on here. Kinda reminds me of gender ideology in fact, and I'd say the same thing as I do to gender idealogues: you can make whatever unevidenced and unfalsifiable assumptions you like about other people and use them as a guide to your own action (boycott the conference in protest?) all you like. What you can't do is impose rules upon others on the basis of them.

What a coup indeed. FFS.
Genspect were running the conference and the comms. They failed to recognise the level of risk they were dealing with by bringing in his voice (which I still think is very useful to help understand what the framework needs to consider) and put in the right mitigations. The only one that would have been appropriate would be a strict dress code for him, so that he was prevented from this performance and the conference would then be protected from the inevitable aftermath of finger pointing etc.

I learned my own lesson about clearer communication on a similar subject this week. But I'm not in charge of who enters what threads, nor was I aware of what was being said outside of what I had seen myself - I definitely regret my wording choice in my final shit sandwich direct message to the interloper (next time no bread) and I'll learn from that. By contrast Genspect were the arbiters of all of it. When they cast their net wide - which is the right thing to do, given their aims - they need to think about the protocols for managing the risks that this brings in. I'm sure they will next time. Right now, they are firefighting (with mixed success) on Twitter.

At a conference about trans issues...

People can't say "we need to talk about AGP" and then say "AGP people shouldn't be allowed to talk".

You go to these conferences you would know what to expect.

'If I didn't "consent" to being part of an AGP's fetish does that mean I couldn't go to the conference?'

This.

Yes, exactly, Rhymes. He's managed to make the whole conference all about him and his fetish. What a coup.

I just don't see any benefit at all in engaging with AGPs. How does it help women and children out of the mess we're in? If I didn't "consent" to being part of an AGP's fetish does that mean I couldn't go to the conference?

I don't know why we ever need to "understand" harmful paraphilia, it feels like yet again women are being told it's our job to fix men. And I'm really fucking tired of it.

If everyone is very clear that this is a man who writes about his fetish openly, and attends a conference wearing his self described fetish costume, and all participants are made aware that this man will likely be aroused by their responses to his presence/appearance, and any interactions with him in costume, then that will remove the non consensual aspect of the performance.

It needs to be made clear to everyone beforehand.

Genspect isn’t a women’s or feminist organisation though is it? My understanding was it was trying to be a more evidence based gender one. So they are already starting from a position GC women are likely to disagree with.

Indeed. And the knock-on effect that's playing out on Twitter (the infighting amongst GCs) is unpleasant.

It reminded me of what Freda was saying after the IEA conference how it all went to plan, people fell in to Freda's trap and it was all part of the artistic process. Perhaps Freda's artist process efforts were just entry grade level by comparison.

I do think it's helpful that Genspect is listening to the view of the acronym that can't be named from an insider's view too. There is a lot of valuable insight for the new gender dysphoria framework. However, they should have mitigated for what a self-confessed such person might be likely to do when attending in person.

His book is about normalising it as a sexual orientation. That kind of conflation is taking things right back to gender affirming care. There are some tweets saying that the book also talks about the only effective treatment being cross sex hormones. If that's the case he needs extra guardrails putting in place when his (useful) insight in to this aspect of gender dysphoria is brought in to the conference. There will be many adolescent boys who don't even realise that the acronym applies to them so it's helpful that the conference can learn as much as possible about this side of things.

Stella O'Malley knows this whole subject very well but she's struggling on comms right now from what I can see. She called the promotional tweet from the Genspect account a mistake first of all. Then in the "Split" article that she wrote (which has some bizarre TRA language in it about some women wanting three letter acronym people dead), she says she's not sure if it might be a mistake.

The detransitioners seem particularly badly impacted in the whole mess 😔

I really hope that Stella can pull this back together ASAP. Genspect has done some amazing work and what they are putting together sounds like it will be a huge improvement on the current WPATH standards that currently govern many countries' approaches to providing care for people who experience/self-diagnose gender dysphoria. I'm going to read it and respond within the timeframe but I'll be very closely watching out for any further failures in letting this kind of influence in to what they are delivering. On a positive note, she has said that they will be taking another look at his book - so this suggests that hopefully he's not had that much influence and really was just a conference attendee - who should have been told to wear something more appropriate if he wanted to be there. That dress was completely incongruous with the event and was barely any better than what Freda wore.

Clothing is a tricky one to criticise as women’s clothing is just stereotypes.

Women wear highly sexualised or revealing outfits. We’ve seen vagina hats on marches. I don’t know how we can police one sex without the other.

inappropriate clothing Its like trying to define porn - it’s more that you know it when you see it. Overt Fetish wear obviously but can we really put our foot down on regular clothing?

I don’t want to give this person a platform to talk about their fetish (although sunlight is useful) but I’m uncomfortable with banning people ‘we don’t like’ especially from a conference set up to look at these types of issues.

I have been a supporter of Genspect's work but this sits really uncomfortably with me. Not just that they posted a photo of an AGP with a cutesy message but that his book was on their list of recommended reading.

I'm here for women and children. Including trans widows who have been terribly hurt by their AGP husbands. Genspect's statement didn't really address people's criticisms and they went on the counter attack on Twitter pretty quickly.

Standing For Women went wrong a few years ago when they suggested that disabled toilets could be the "third space" answer and were similarly criticised. They made a genuine apology and everyone moved on. If Genspect want to do the same that would be great.

The man has published a book talking about his fetish. Wearing the clothes is behaviour. He's openly fucking with everyone, it seems.

I think it's very unhelpful to focus on this one individual and assume, therefore, that Genspect aren't doing good work. I'm a regular donor because I'm so grateful for their support and that of the Gender Dysphoria Support Network as I've navigated the stress of having a DC questioning their gender identity. I've met many other parents for whom they've also been a lifeline. It's a huge relief that organisations like Genspeact are fighting this insanity on our behalf while we try to prevent our families from falling apart.

Yes. It's equivalent to wearing bondage gear. Not appropriate for a conference.

The thing I don't get is this:

Almost by definition being a GC feminist means not thinking that wearing a dress has anything to do with being a woman. The people moaning that a man in a dress (who is not claiming to be anything else) is 'skinwalking as a woman' are not being Gender Critical- they are being Gender Affirmative.

I understand the concern that this particular bloke seems like he might be performing his fetish in public (so perhaps criticism here is fiar) but there are an increasing number of people claiming to be 'Gender Critical' (they always seem to forget the feminist bit) who oppose any kind of gender non conformity- a contradiction in terms.

Missed that bit Woman2023. Inappropriate

How is he involving other people?

Wearing the clothes in public is a big part of the fetish. Its being seen.

For me it was that the genspect twitter/x account said that we should check out his book. Having written a book about his AGP fetish and his name being "autogynephilic", it seemed to me that they are almost promoting his fetish.

Pretty strange behaviour for an organisation who want to guide children who are gender confused.

With him, if he knows he's agp, why perform and wear the costume as such? If he knows the harm it can cause? Especially at such an event?

How is he involving other people?

Great. I am free to say this man was performing a fetish in public, and involving other people as participants in his non consensual sexual fetish, then.