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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's going on with Genspect?

839 replies

MalagaNights · 12/11/2023 17:51

I've seen Stella O'Malley tweet about being unfairly attacked.
I've seen a weird exchange from James Lindsay about feminists trying to take down Genspect.

But I can't work out what's happened or who is fighting with who.

Any ideas?

OP posts:
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ArthurbellaScott · 18/11/2023 19:14

Georgeburgess · 18/11/2023 18:33

They weren't helpful to me. They didn't offer me templates, just unanswered emails and then links. I contacted them about my school. I see that their out of office reply from the summer is still on, that says it all 🙄

I'd ask for your money back, in that case.

Georgeburgess · 18/11/2023 18:33

They weren't helpful to me. They didn't offer me templates, just unanswered emails and then links. I contacted them about my school. I see that their out of office reply from the summer is still on, that says it all 🙄

ResisterRex · 18/11/2023 17:08

Safe Schools Alliance don't seem to understand very much about safeguarding.

It's their bread and butter. HTH.

SaffronSpice · 18/11/2023 17:05

Georgeburgess · 18/11/2023 14:55

@PencilsInSpace you seem to think that Genspect work with children but they don't.
Safe Schools Alliance don't seem to understand very much about safeguarding. They just seem to be a twitter account that calls things out in an inappropriate manner?
As a parent who needed help with their affirmative approach to me distressed kid, I wrote to SSA looking for help. They didn't reply twice in a row and then when when i pointed this out, they sent me links to government website. It was not only unhelpful, it made me feel even more isolated. I was thankful when I turned to Genspect and they helped me.

SSA provide a range of template letters and guides for approaching schools. https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/ They are very knowledgeable about safeguarding. They state their concerns are:

  • The adoption of gender identity ideology in schools and its impact on the lives of children, especially girls.
  • The use by schools of RSE materials which sexualise children and promote porn and other harmful sexual practices.

If you were looking for a support organisation to tackle your gender clinic’s affirmation only approach then they were the wrong organisation.

Homepage - Safe Schools Alliance UK

Welcome to our homepage. This explains who we are, what we do and how we are campaigning for a better understanding of child safeguarding.

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

OldCrone · 18/11/2023 16:26

Safe Schools Alliance don't seem to understand very much about safeguarding.

What makes you say that?

I'm not sure if they're really a support organisation though. I think they're more about campaigning and information. If you want support it might be better to contact a group for parents like Bayswater Support Group.

Georgeburgess · 18/11/2023 14:55

@PencilsInSpace you seem to think that Genspect work with children but they don't.
Safe Schools Alliance don't seem to understand very much about safeguarding. They just seem to be a twitter account that calls things out in an inappropriate manner?
As a parent who needed help with their affirmative approach to me distressed kid, I wrote to SSA looking for help. They didn't reply twice in a row and then when when i pointed this out, they sent me links to government website. It was not only unhelpful, it made me feel even more isolated. I was thankful when I turned to Genspect and they helped me.

UtopiaPlanitia · 18/11/2023 01:29

From the article above, Illy wants teenagers given cross sex hormones on demand and no psychological treatment - he’s ideologically opposed to Genspect and would happily see them fail… and the eejits are out there caping for him 🙄🤦‍♀️

UtopiaPlanitia · 18/11/2023 01:14

A new article about the Genspect debate and a review of Illy’s book:

https://www.thedistancemag.com/p/sympathy-for-the-devil-with-the-blue

This article’s tone feels all over the place - making some good points, some trite points, some that feel like trolling.

To be honest Illy sounds worse the more I hear about him and this paragraph in the article does NOT describe what I would think upon seeing him at a conference:

'When I saw Phil Illy in the hotel lobby at the Genspect conference on Friday, 3 November, he stood out because of that dress. It was a signal: Come here maybe. I am interesting to talk to. Come here maybe. I am interesting to talk to. Come here maybe. I am interesting to talk to.'

Some more quotes from the article:

'Every manner of boundary that feminists have defended from AGP men in recent years has a history in the literature, it turns out. Men really do fetishize pregnancy to the point of womb envy, ladies, and they always really have, to the point of autogynephilia. Lactation fetish too: Illy describes the phenomenon a little, but without mentioning any health concerns for a baby suckling on elevated levels of male nipple discharge. “Validation” and the resulting euphoria are paramount. Like Tate, boobs are at the center of the AGP equation. “Autogynephillic people are more likely to want female breasts than any other body part.” You don’t say!'

'Some people don’t want Genspect to succeed. They would rather not slay the pediatric transition dragon. They would rather milk the dragon forever, earning clicks and likes and superchats with outrage. It is what they do. Phil Illy understands them perfectly. He was counting on them, and they delivered, granting him days of ‘earned media.’ They want to build his legend even now. Watch them try.'

'Phil Illy does not want the ‘gender critical movement’ (whatever that is) to cohere long enough to have significant impact. “When it does,” he predicts, “gender-critical feminists (aka ‘trans-exclusionary radical feminists’ or ‘TERFs’) and socially regressive political groups [read: Republicans] will disparage autoheterosexuality and push the narrative that suits their ideological goals. They already do.” Actual genocide, in other words. He has to stop us, otherwise he can never get to build his heaven on earth.'

Sympathy for the Devil with the Blue Dress On

A review of Phil Illy's 'Autoheterosexual'

https://www.thedistancemag.com/p/sympathy-for-the-devil-with-the-blue

ArthurbellaScott · 17/11/2023 22:04

Quite.

UtopiaPlanitia · 17/11/2023 21:49

RhymesWithOrange · 17/11/2023 21:35

Well said 💐

RhymesWithOrange · 17/11/2023 21:35

x.com/with_rhymes/status/1725568949180334190?s=46

ArthurbellaScott · 17/11/2023 20:50

I suppose it's defensive trolling. It's a belter of a blind spot, though.

AlisonDonut · 17/11/2023 20:33

When people show you who they are...

Anything that increases clicks is good for all of them. I'm done with every single one.

UtopiaPlanitia · 17/11/2023 20:17

OldCrone · 17/11/2023 20:03

I'm surprised and disappointed at Nina Paley. I thought she got it. Does she really not understand the sexual aspect of crossdressing in males? Particularly in one who has admitted that for him it's a sexual act.

I’m also surprised at how obnoxious she’s being. A lot of Genspect-supporting biggish online names (Boyce, Exulansic, Lindsey, O’Malley, Cohen) are being obnoxious and trolling rather than engaging on the substance of the argument.

OldCrone · 17/11/2023 20:03

I'm surprised and disappointed at Nina Paley. I thought she got it. Does she really not understand the sexual aspect of crossdressing in males? Particularly in one who has admitted that for him it's a sexual act.

RethinkingLife · 17/11/2023 19:12

<Sigh> Nina Paley gave herself a hostage to fortune in the future for a tweet that is likely to be quoted out of context from its thread (one PP posted).

What's going on with Genspect?
UtopiaPlanitia · 17/11/2023 18:55

ArthurbellaScott · 17/11/2023 18:00

Odd response. Why the hyper focus on 'scapegoating'?

Paley is responding I presume to discussion focused on one person. And empathising.

Completely missing the performative aspect of the fetish.and the nature of exhibitionism.

Yes, she’s empathising with the individual involved but she’s also making the point (I think) that the clothes aren’t inherently sexual. Which is missing the point, because it’s completely ignoring the fact that it’s the actions that are being objected to.

Context is important and, for some reason, Paley et al seem to be unable to understand that. In fact, her wearing the outfit proves the point that it’s not the clothing that’s the issue, it’s the behaviour 🤷‍♀️

ArthurbellaScott · 17/11/2023 18:00

Odd response. Why the hyper focus on 'scapegoating'?

Paley is responding I presume to discussion focused on one person. And empathising.

Completely missing the performative aspect of the fetish.and the nature of exhibitionism.

AlisonDonut · 17/11/2023 17:52

So many people in this who just don't get it.

Which I guess is how we got into this position in the first place.

UtopiaPlanitia · 17/11/2023 17:01

I despair of us being able to get Genspect-related people to understand why AGP is a safeguarding issue - they just seem to be wilfully refusing to address concerns.

Nina Paley is defending the man from the conference and telling women off for scapegoating him. She is taking the piss out of women pointing out the sexual nature of his behaviour by posting a photo of herself wearing the same outfit as he did and tweeting it (see link below). 🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️

https://twitter.com/ninapaley/status/1725174605101326781

Tweet text:
@ ninapaley
Forcing others to be unwilling, nonconsenting participants in my kink is no less than public sexual assault. And I should be treated the same way as a rapist caught in the act.
3:30 pm · 16 Nov 2023 ·21.8K Views

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 17/11/2023 07:35

I think one positive effect of gender ideology is that a lot of feminist have had to look back at their ideas and prune out the deadwood.

Yes, I've seen that shift in myself. Sometimes you don't see the flaw in an ideology until you see its consequences. I took a much longer time to accept that there really are innate physical differences between men and women that women can't overcome by training and lifestyle than I would have done if the question of men taking over women's sport hadn't arisen. I would have continued to hope that the gap would narrow and maybe I would have still assumed all the differences could be overcome. But (to be fair to myself) I still wouldn't accept letting men into women's sport before that happened!

TempestTost · 16/11/2023 17:47

Although less of this view than there was 4/5 years ago when it was pretty much the consensus/ majority view? Has anyone else noticed that shift?

I think one positive effect of gender ideology is that a lot of feminist have had to look back at their ideas and prune out the deadwood. It's become clear that it's not as simple as abolishing all social differences around sex categories, and that some of the ideas pushed about the interchangeability of men and women, particularly in media and film, may have been misguided. That there is an essential embodied element to womanhood and we can't pretend it's insignificant.

Unless idea get challenged, they never have to be refined and people get away with sloppy thinking.

TempestTost · 16/11/2023 17:38

Boomboom22 · 14/11/2023 17:40

Yes agree this is normal right like uk. I meant the right wing USA essentially used as a slur when paired with gc beliefs.

Even in the US. I know quite a few conservative American women. There are certainly some differernces in their political views, but they look nothing like what people who want to say they think "gender is innate" seem to think they believe. They are just normal people, they have careers, they send their daughters to university, expect them to be good at maths, etc.

ArthurbellaScott · 16/11/2023 14:54

Which, OP, might affect your stance on feminists being 'critical' of gender. It's not about feminists saying 'gender is bad and wrong' it's about feminists interrogating, analysing and talking about 'gender'.