Page 18 | What's going on with Genspect?

MalagaNights · 2023-11-12T17:51:11+00:00

I've seen Stella O'Malley tweet about being unfairly attacked. I've seen a weird exchange from James Lindsay about feminists trying to take down Genspect. But I can't work out what's happened or who is fighting with who. Any ideas?

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 12:18

'Feminists have promoted abolishing dress codes around sex'

They have? Where? What 'dress codes'?

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 12:17

NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 12:14

I’m pretty sure in his interview Grayson Perry indicated it’s no longer arousing to him because age has tempered his erections, not that the permission has diminished its allure.

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No, he said both. Definitely said that it lost its charge/thrill now that it was more accepted.

NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 12:14

SaffronSpice · 23/11/2023 12:07

Men have never been banned from wearing women's clothes.

It's just they've now been given permission,

”given permission” is a problem for them and why Grayson Perry says it not longer so arousing for him. It is the breaking of norms that is the thrill. When a norm is dismantled the thrill is gone so they have to push further to transgress.

I’m pretty sure in his interview Grayson Perry indicated it’s no longer arousing to him because age has tempered his erections, not that the permission has diminished its allure.

Original poster

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 12:09

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 12:02

Post modernism has arguably deliberately sought to dismantle normative social mores.

Feminism has sought to question, criticise and dismantle oppression based on social stereotypes. Stereotypes are not the same as 'norms'.

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They might be in some cases.

Dress codes are norms. Feminists have promoted abolishing dress codes around sex. They still are.

How has promoting men wearing dresses dismantled women's oppression?

I'm saying it hasn't. It's the opposite. It's given a small group of men another way to intimidate women.
Unforseen consequences.
Chesterton's fence.

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SaffronSpice · 23/11/2023 12:07

Men have never been banned from wearing women's clothes.

It's just they've now been given permission,

”given permission” is a problem for them and why Grayson Perry says it not longer so arousing for him. It is the breaking of norms that is the thrill. When a norm is dismantled the thrill is gone so they have to push further to transgress.

BonfireLady · 23/11/2023 12:07

@Ereshkigalangcleg@ArthurbellaScott thank you for helping me to see sense on the limitations of Freda's abilities 😁 It's annoyingly coincidental that it's all blowing up at the same time.

If Benjamin Boyce can behave himself in facilitating the conversation this evening, it should be possible to probe the question around freedom of dress choice, societal norms and fetish with the guests that he's got and feed this positively in to the discourse... and therefore Genspect's work. This also relies heavily on KJK helping to lead both him and Stella, not just block, and on Stella taking on board the balance of healthy open curiosity and sensible guardrails to treat the mental illness where someone is at odds with their body. Distinguishing between a fetishist (who most likely wants enablement) and someone in genuine distress is key. It's also important that they don't just stay on the subject of the conference itself during the discussion. That's important of course, because of the distress and furore that it caused, but the bigger issue is how all of this impacts the framework that Genspect is building.

In theory, good facilitation is what he intends to do. Although arguably his promotional tweets leading up to this (with photoshopped imagery of himself doing the facilitation in a blue dress) suggest a different picture. He certainly has the capability to facilitate this well, based on his past interviews. It remains to be seen whether he gives enough of a shit to do that or if he just wants to stick the knife in to feminists for a laugh and some clickbait as part of his current mockery.

Screenshot from a few days ago...

OldCrone · 23/11/2023 12:07

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:45

I'm not blaming feminists for men's behaviour.

I'm suggesting that feminists reflect on the consequences of some ideas that they continue push such as: there shouldn't be social norms in clothing, men in dresses is fine.

Individuals have responsibility for their behaviour but ideas have consequences.

I'm raising this as it's a feminist board and I see a contradiction in the positions taken here. Not because I think feminists are solely responsible.

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The reason I think men in dresses should be fine is because it seems that if you say it's not fine, the next step is dictating what is and what is not acceptable for everyone. If we ban men from wearing dresses couldn't it be argued that we should also ban women from wearing trousers?

I disagree that it's feminists pushing the "no social norms" more generally. It's the "bring your whole self to work" proponents who are pushing this. There's no need to "bring your whole self" to work. It's sometimes acceptable to have a dress code.

NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 12:07

OldCrone · 23/11/2023 11:36

Some of them definitely get off on wearing "conservative" women's clothes. Look at Debbie Hayton, a self-confessed AGP, for example.

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Possibly. Personally I suspect Hayton is one of the few intelligent enough to know to reign it in once in a while to try and gain some notion of respectability. Which has worked on some people🤨.

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 12:02

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:11

It was never banned. There were just social norms.

The whole idea of norms has been deliberately eroded. See people wearing pyjamas to shops as another example.

Feminists have promoted the wear whatever you want mantra, the dismantle norms narrative, which has given narcissistic men permission to flaunt their fetish.

This is what no norms look likes.

Of course dress norms change over time, but it's usually organic and with concensus. This is different this is not a new norm this is permission to transgress norms and force people to accept your fetish or attention seeking.

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Post modernism has arguably deliberately sought to dismantle normative social mores.

Feminism has sought to question, criticise and dismantle oppression based on social stereotypes. Stereotypes are not the same as 'norms'.

Original poster

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 12:01

This is why I don't think boys should be allowed to wear skirts and dresses to school.

It will largely be attention seeking boys who enjoy the social transgression who will do so.

(Obviously little boys playing is fine and not part of this, they don't yet know the norm so they're not transgressing)

Wearing a dress is not essential for anyone so preventing it doesn't harm anyone.
But allowing it for boys distorts norms and power and so has negative consequences for the group.

If however there is a time when men's skirts have become a normal dress code, I'd have no objections to this being introduced to school for boys.

I'm against allowing attention seeking people to dominate everyone else by transgressing norms.

Norms will always emerge and there will always be a minority who seek attention through transgression.

Go to art college. But don't be expected to be accommodated at school or work. The norms have a function for the general group there.

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Original poster

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:45

OldCrone · 23/11/2023 11:33

Please stop blaming feminists for something that has come about due to changing attitudes in society generally. Feminists have never had the power to change anything without the consent of wider society. It's not our fault that men have taken advantage of these changes. If anyone is to blame it's the men taking advantage followed by the whole of society for allowing it. Stop trying to make out that women are responsible for what men do.

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I'm not blaming feminists for men's behaviour.

I'm suggesting that feminists reflect on the consequences of some ideas that they continue push such as: there shouldn't be social norms in clothing, men in dresses is fine.

Individuals have responsibility for their behaviour but ideas have consequences.

I'm raising this as it's a feminist board and I see a contradiction in the positions taken here. Not because I think feminists are solely responsible.

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Original poster

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:39

Wow I'm not sure why I'm getting deleted!

Maybe because I'm not sticking to the abolish social norms, there'll be no consequences, it'll just be lovely free self expression mantra.

When you abolish social norms you don't get freedom you get tyranny by the minority of narcissists.

Let's see if this more vague post remains...

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ResisterRex · 23/11/2023 11:38

The uncomfortable truth is that everyone knows what it is when men wear women's clothes. Whether or not we are comfortable with naming it, is another issue.

OldCrone · 23/11/2023 11:36

NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 11:21

There’s no need to ban men from wearing women’s clothes. The AGPs will always stand out. Because they won’t be able to help themselves. There’s nothing in it for them to wear “conservative” women’s clothes, it would be like wearing men’s clothes. I mean seriously, are people we can’t tell who the fetishists are, just like we can’t tell people’s sex? It’s always as plain as day.

Some of them definitely get off on wearing "conservative" women's clothes. Look at Debbie Hayton, a self-confessed AGP, for example.

OldCrone · 23/11/2023 11:33

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:11

It was never banned. There were just social norms.

The whole idea of norms has been deliberately eroded. See people wearing pyjamas to shops as another example.

Feminists have promoted the wear whatever you want mantra, the dismantle norms narrative, which has given narcissistic men permission to flaunt their fetish.

This is what no norms look likes.

Of course dress norms change over time, but it's usually organic and with concensus. This is different this is not a new norm this is permission to transgress norms and force people to accept your fetish or attention seeking.

Show quote history

Please stop blaming feminists for something that has come about due to changing attitudes in society generally. Feminists have never had the power to change anything without the consent of wider society. It's not our fault that men have taken advantage of these changes. If anyone is to blame it's the men taking advantage followed by the whole of society for allowing it. Stop trying to make out that women are responsible for what men do.

Original poster

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:27

NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 11:21

There’s no need to ban men from wearing women’s clothes. The AGPs will always stand out. Because they won’t be able to help themselves. There’s nothing in it for them to wear “conservative” women’s clothes, it would be like wearing men’s clothes. I mean seriously, are people we can’t tell who the fetishists are, just like we can’t tell people’s sex? It’s always as plain as day.

Men have never been banned from wearing women's clothes.

It's just they've now been given permission, and celebrated.
Partly by feminists.

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Original poster

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:25

NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 11:21

There’s no need to ban men from wearing women’s clothes. The AGPs will always stand out. Because they won’t be able to help themselves. There’s nothing in it for them to wear “conservative” women’s clothes, it would be like wearing men’s clothes. I mean seriously, are people we can’t tell who the fetishists are, just like we can’t tell people’s sex? It’s always as plain as day.

Which ones are not the fetishists?

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MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:24

This reply has been deleted

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NotBadConsidering · 23/11/2023 11:21

There’s no need to ban men from wearing women’s clothes. The AGPs will always stand out. Because they won’t be able to help themselves. There’s nothing in it for them to wear “conservative” women’s clothes, it would be like wearing men’s clothes. I mean seriously, are people we can’t tell who the fetishists are, just like we can’t tell people’s sex? It’s always as plain as day.

Original poster

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:20

OldCrone · 23/11/2023 10:14

It's a good example of Chesterton's fence to me: don't dismantle the fence until you are sure it has no utility and wasn't there for a reason.

OK, what do you think is the utility of "traditional" clothing styles for men and women?

I think some social norms around dress are essential.
I'm not wedded to what they are, fashion changes.

But I think some norms related to sex will always emerge and any movement which says you can transgress the norm will serve narcissistic attention seeking fetishistic men.

Every time.

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MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OldCrone · 23/11/2023 11:14

SaffronSpice · 23/11/2023 10:44

It is not dresses that is the issue, it is dressing in women’s clothes. With ‘women’s clothes’ defined by cut and culture. Let’s not pretend we don’t know exactly why men wear women’s knickers.

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The problem is that many people seem to have convinced themselves that men wear women's knickers because they have ladybrains and girly feelings and that it's absolutely nothing to do with the f-word. Those people are either very innocent and naive or they have their eyes firmly shut (while shouting "be kind") to avoid facing the truth.

Original poster

MalagaNights · 23/11/2023 11:11

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 10:08

Many feminists here promoted the idea men in dresses is fine. Which ones? We'll rely on them telling us to spot the ones who should be banned? All the others are fine?*

But wtf would the proposal be otherwise? Banning men in garments that don't have bifurcated leg attachments? Banning kilts? Banning men from wearing make up? None of this is feasible, let alone desirable.

It was never banned. There were just social norms.

The whole idea of norms has been deliberately eroded. See people wearing pyjamas to shops as another example.

Feminists have promoted the wear whatever you want mantra, the dismantle norms narrative, which has given narcissistic men permission to flaunt their fetish.

This is what no norms look likes.

Of course dress norms change over time, but it's usually organic and with concensus. This is different this is not a new norm this is permission to transgress norms and force people to accept your fetish or attention seeking.

OP posts:

SaffronSpice · 23/11/2023 10:44

ArthurbellaScott · 23/11/2023 10:08

Many feminists here promoted the idea men in dresses is fine. Which ones? We'll rely on them telling us to spot the ones who should be banned? All the others are fine?*

But wtf would the proposal be otherwise? Banning men in garments that don't have bifurcated leg attachments? Banning kilts? Banning men from wearing make up? None of this is feasible, let alone desirable.

It is not dresses that is the issue, it is dressing in women’s clothes. With ‘women’s clothes’ defined by cut and culture. Let’s not pretend we don’t know exactly why men wear women’s knickers.

DameMaud · 23/11/2023 10:33

DameMaud · 23/11/2023 09:03

Unfortunately Bonfirelady, most safeguarding legislation has followed from serious harms or deaths in high profile cases. The DBS (formerly CRB) was brought in after the murder of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman I believe (happy to be corrected). So something awful had to happen before action was taking. I think that's pretty much the pattern in the history of safeguarding.
It's a really interesting history to look at.

Just for clarity. This was in in specific response to @BonfireLady re DBS in schools.

Regarding Illy-gate- I'm still trying to work out my thoughts on this. I'm listening to all arguments and reading articles from all views and looking forward to Boyce live tonight (I think!).

One thing is defintely clear to me so far though- there is a frustrating lack of understanding from the Boycey side, of even where those objecting to what happened and what the issues might be, are coming from.