What's going on with Genspect?

Exactly, women who wear jeans didn't start by stealing yfronts off washing lines, and then taking them home, sniffing them, putting them on and masturbating themselves into a frenzy.

The same way that females transitioning is completely different to males.

If society has to push back towards a more conservative split of gendered clothes, the reason why will be just like every other rule or law of society: a small group of men have ruined it for the rest of us.

Maybe its time to bring back the 21s century version of the Spanish Inquisition, where we round up all the men wearing things that may be giving them sexual thoughts, ship them off to some interrogation rooms for some serious questioning to find out the truth.

Some of these disgusting creatures might doing it secretly, with just undergarments, so let's get the police to do some random stop and searches to put the fear into them. They're not getting off any less just because you can't see it. Getting a boner in public is suspicious, so instant search for any man with one of those

This all feels a bit sexist to be honest. The horror and the shock is not manifested by the wearer, they cannot control the observer and make them feel that way. It's fully produced in the heads of the observer, and those thoughts are rooted in sexism and stereotypes present in society as a whole. The moment nobody cares, there is no thrill, no "taboo", its just another outfit a person wears. There are men, for sure, who are put off by all the "blah blah blah" about what's allowed and not allowed. It's disappointing, for me, to see women getting upset because well .. it wasn't too long ago they'd be abused in the street for wearing trousers, they had to tread cautiously and start with bloomers first. It was mere decades ago the rules changed allowing women to wear trousers in the US senate which is why women there like their trousers and suits so much more than female MPs in the UK.

All that really matters, objectively, is whether its generally acceptable for any person to a wear a thing in a particular context.

This essay, written by an AGP man comparing himself to women, might help you understand the difference in mindset:

https://archive.is/2pQIq

I really don't think all men wearing skirts are perverts. Some people prefer skirts. Some trousers. Other countries men wear what looks like skirts.
Yes Some fetishists wear very sexualised clothing but again as a pp said if it's arousal at the thought of oneself as a woman rather than other people seeing you as a woman or fearing you then it's not that different to wearing sexy underwear because it makes you feel good. Which personally I find ick, wtf would you? Nice big cotton knickers and t shirt bras make me feel comfortable. Trousers recently but for about a decade I wore dresses. Before that mainly skirts to work. Mostly due to body shape and getting trousers to fit my used to be skinny lanky body!

It worries me to wonder what such men would do instead, in order to get the type of thrill they crave. But there may well be a strong tendency to graduate to more transgressive behaviour anyway. This is why I would prefer to see societal boundaries and norms set in quite conservative positions, so that only those people who are comfortable with pushing hard against them do significant damage, and most people are protected by their own and other people’s consciences.

The tw sixth formers are nice kids who are weirdos who don't fit in well as boys. Tbh not as girls either. 15 years ago they were emos. They are probably not wearing skirts as a fetish, I do not get that vibe and I always get the vibe. Like always. I have never been surprised by a celebrity or former student etc.

None of these men are naive. They all know why they want to wear 'women's clothes'. None of them have ever campaigned for 'Rational Dress' as women have been doing for the past 140 years. There's a reason for that.

I agree with this, if I’ve understood correctly. The problem at the moment is not that some men are wearing clothing that is seen as women’s clothing, it is that some men are wearing clothing which appears sexualised and sets off alarm bells. Those men are either naive and don’t know what effect their clothing has on other people, or they do know and they don’t care or they enjoy transgressing the social contract (the norms most of us expect). The social contract, that men don’t wear dresses or skirts apart from some cultural exceptions (kilts and other national costumes), has now been queered, so many of us don’t quite know what the norms are. This is uncomfortable, and it makes it very easy for men with bad intentions to confuse organisations and individuals.

I see the confusion all over the place, in organisations whose members and leaders want to be nice, and to be seen to be nice, and in people like myself, who also want to be kind but also are concerned about truth and about consequences to, among others, vulnerable (and indeed all) women.

I doubt many women have ever started wearing mens clothes by secretly buying/stealing underwear and then progressing to trousers in public.

No, it's possible to say that fetishistic cross-dressing is a particularly male behaviour because fetishistic anything is a particularly male behaviour.

It's not about the clothes/balloons/feet/smoking/dead bodies/nappies/used sanitary products etc. It's about the fetish.

There are a few women who are into BDSM but they are dwarfed by the number of men who are into it, as well as much weirder shit and, I would argue, for very different reasons.

'If it exists, there will be porn of it on the internet' is a (very old) meme for reasons which have nothing to do with the behaviour of women.

When women campaigned to be allowed to wear trousers they campaigned for Rational Dress. They campaigned for clothes that they could move normally in, and which would not cause them pain. The racier women campaigned for clothes in which they could ride a bicycle.

Sure, they were labelled perverts but the difference is that they weren't perverts and these men are.

Hence, millions of women leaving the house in trousers every day in 2023 without having any sexual thoughts about it at all. It's just normal.

So if men want to wear dresses then they should explain why that would be rational. Otherwise it's not unreasonable to assume that they are getting off on it because nobody wears that shit for comfort.

What's a 'born woman'? Do you just mean a woman? How is contemplating yourself in the nude in any way gendered? You are just contemplating your naked sexed body. Most people are at least partially naked in their sex fantasies because sex involves getting your bits out. This is really not difficult.

Why does nobody get off on imagining themself in y fronts or boxers?

Could it be that male and female 'cross-dressing' are not the same, however much some men would like to pretend they are?

Could it be that Blanchard devised a shite questionnaire that has nothing to do with women and is not women's fault or responsibility?

'Autoandrophilia' is not a thing.

I doubt many women on FWR watch MAFS and if they do I imagine their main complaint would be the whole setup of the programme. Why single out this one instance that you think we should busy ourselves write letters about?

Just finished the livestream and very glad I watched it - it was just what I hoped it would be: constructive and civilised. Good discussion of the various topics.

We need more examples of this. It would be great if more groups like WPUK got involved in conversation with the women who need their help. Professionals and civilians working together rather than professionals telling civilians what they should/shouldn’t think.

@MalagaNights I just came across this article and thought it relevant to this thread, and the livestream that happened tonight, ie people displaying their fetishes shouldn’t be around children (I would argue they shouldn’t be around women either but I’ll prioritise children).

https://scottishunionforeducation.substack.com/p/scottish-union-for-education-newsletter-68d

I mostly wear men's clothes. Loads of women do, it's just normal.

It's only possible to say that fetishistic cross-dressing is a particularly male behaviour because, in many societies at least, there has already been a social transformation which has enabled widespread wearing of hitherto typically male fashions by women.

Of course, at the time these transgressions began taking off, those women were labelled as deviants, perverts with unnatural sexualities and sexual desires.

And on the AGP angle of course many , many born women answer in the affirmative to questions that Ray Blanchard used to establish the concept of autogynophilia. Eg ‘I have been erotically aroused by contemplating myself in the nude’, or ‘I have been erotically aroused by contemplating myself wearing lingerie, underwear, or foundation garments '.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343552498_Autogynephilia_A_scientific_review_feminist_analysis_and_alternative_'embodiment_fantasies'_model

There are plenty of women you are walking next to, sitting next to etc who have chosen their underwear that morning because it makes them feel damn sexy. Are these women forcing you to participate in their fetish too?

Married At First Sight is an enormously popular reality TV show and on this year's show a couple used a vibrating egg during one of the dinner parties, presumably they were forcing others present to participate in their fetish too, to a much, much greater degree? - I presume everyone in FWR sent in thousands of complaints about that?

Once again you've completely misunderstood what I was saying.

You have taken the word "dictate" rather too literally. I was simply referring to the social norms, which most people, as you have observed, conform to most of the time. Most people conform because they don't want to stand out as "odd", and also, unless they are willing to make all their own clothes, they have to wear what is available in the shops. The different styles for men and women are also part of what limits their choice.

I even suspect you wear women's clothes. (I may be wrong) Some women do wear mens' clothes and of course yuo can still tell they're women, but it is unusual. Even neutral style clothing is diffrent in some way. I'm wearing joggers and a sweathirt right now, as is my husband, but if we were to just swap styles there would still be something off about it.

I sometimes wear men's clothes. I have a few pairs of men's jeans (thicker denim, proper pockets) and I often wear men's t-shirts. I'm not sure anyone looking at me would know they were "men's clothes". How would you tell?

Most of it is Stella talking. It was very frustrating in the usual ways but she appeared to take on board that Genspect need to reflect which is a definite step in the right direction.

Ha yes, Stella certainly talked a lot!
However, lots of good stuff came out of that monologue/discussion. KJK was great and really did lead the way on where the discussion went and the tone within which it took place.
Benjamin may learn a thing or two and perhaps he'll be kerbing some of his more recent bravado on the subject. There certainly seemed to be a united front between the two ladies on the harms of the acronym. It was also good to hear a) the centring on Genspect's purpose and b) Stella saying that she would reflect on the aftermath and her messaging clarity.

If this has started the ball rolling properly on wider awareness of the acronym, that will be a good thing.

From what Stella was saying about Genspect's approach, it does leave me more hopeful that the framework may not have been compromised. Does anyone know the review deadline date? I would still like to read it and send a response.

Yes, I was fooled once by Izzard hiding his fetish in plain sight, I won't be fooled again now by this new version.

"Here is my fetish, be in no doubt that this gives me a boner, here I am performing it in front of you and explaining it while doing so. Have I told you about my book? It's all about my fetish. It's all OK though, I know I'm not a woman"

Jane Fae is one who gets off on conservative dress.

@UtopiaPlanitia they both talked at relative length. But Stella was describing her experience and Kellie was listening and then responding. BB said almost nothing throughout which is laudable given it is his channel.

I've not read this thread. But just came directly from the Benjamin Boyce livestream. It was a really good discussion. I really feel progress made in understanding between KJK and Stella. It can only be to the good of this movement. Well worth watching and thanks to Ben Boyce for hosting it.

I’m just watching the livestream now, catching up as I started watching late. But so far, Stella has been talking nearly constantly for nearly 45 mins. It’s very interesting to know her thinking but I thought this was going to be more of a discussion 🤔

I think a big part of it all is letting everyone know. Either by telling them directly, or wearing clothing thats obvious.

Izzard used to talk a lot about his cross dressing - 'theyre not womens clothes, they're mine' but that was an excuse to talk about his cross dressing. Would we know he was wearing womens trousers if he didnt say? if its no big deal, why bring it up?

I think forcing everyone to see is a stage after secret cross dressing. Saying 'as a tw', and wearing cardis maybe enough for some, others may force it onto others by wearing high heels or odd dresses.

Also one of the sexologists who researched AGPs, found that for some of them even wearing a plain white T-shirt from the women's section was arousing for them. Not sure if it had to have a particularly feminine fit or not.

So potentially those men could wear a plain white women's t-shirt under a jacket or coat, and it would be difficult to know (because the cut would be hidden). So perhaps there needs to be a process where we check the labels of the clothing to make sure that the men aren't cross-dressing?