What's going on with Genspect?

@EatMyHead you're right that I did possibly miss one user saying that this was their opinion. I had taken their comment to be a misunderstanding of a consensus of opinion, rather than a statement of their own opinion. I'll let the poster pick that one up for clarification directly if they want to do so.
There is definitely no consensus of opinion in this thread that genital removal is a desirable solution to stopping a potential fetish from escalating. Stating that this shows the depravity of MN is unfounded and disingenuous.

The thing that should be explored is the idea that older boys are 'groomed' into AGP behaviour through porn and general acceptance. Would these boys always have become the adult agps, and awareness has just accelerated their behavior. Or are we creating them?

The majority of adolescent boys are drawn towards porn at some point. During this time, they are going to be pulled towards anything that turns them on. Those that are drawn towards the acronym at this time in their lives, for whatever reason (gaming, anime, feeling celebrated and cool instead of isolated and weird etc), are being spectacularly failed by society. The public ignorance, and inclusion and celebration, of this fetish is normalising it to a point where it's not even a thing to worry about. The main driver here has to be a combination of ignorance and a desire to be seen to be kind, not bigoted. So for the adolescent boy, crossing that boundary is going to presumably feel both exciting and OK.

All teenagers are going through emotional anguish and doubt at this age. Unfortunately this whole arena provides "answers" and a thrill at the same time.

Genspect has an opportunity to avoid the WPATH route of "treatment" for eunuchs or men identifying as women having their genitals removed because it is advocating for non-medicalised care. Instead, they have an opportunity to create a therapeutic approach to act as an intervention and course-correct those that are confusing their sexual thrill with an "identity".

I keep thinking back to a fellow parent from the "transparent network" I'm in at work. This parent got in touch with me for a private conversation after I said in the group conversation that I was concerned about the crossover with autism and gender identity being misunderstood with my daughter. I've posted about this previously but it's worth looping back and me reflecting on it again: the child in question is a 16 year old male, referred to at home with female pronouns, is heterosexual (not how it was said to me - "has told me she's a lesbian" were the actual words) and autistic. The son was very much in to anime and has played gaming as a female for a while. At the time when we spoke, the son was on the verge of starting cross-sex hormones. The parents are divorced and both households are affirming their child's female identity. It makes me sad to think that this child could be very much in this cohort and that the parents could simply have no idea. I passed on what I could, diplomatically of course, and left it that I was always happy to continue the conversation if needed. I didn't mention anything specifically about fetish, instead I signposted to a very good gender therapy book that is written by two Tavistock whistleblowers that covers the basics of gender dysphoria in males, as that didn't feel appropriate and I was still very early on in having any real understanding of the male side of gender dysphoria. I've since seen the parent on LGBT+ calls at work trying to learn more about the whole thing from an affirmation perspective, so as to be a supportive parent.

So one person mentioned it on one thread and you think everyone agrees with it?

This is fucking ridiculous.

Anyone can come on here and type words, it doesn't mean everyone automatically agrees with it.

It is fucking batshit to say we all want a range of boys castrated just to avoid them growing up into porn addled AGPs.

It is WPATH that want to create eunachs. Not users of Mumsnet. This is so fucking batshit.

The reason why we only offer psychological treatments to sex offenders is because castration, physical or chemical, doesn't take away the power / paraphilia part just the sexual urge. And most offending isn't driven by sexual urges but by power. So offending continues often using implements instead.
Presumably this can be generalised to agp when it is an offence rather than purely private as it were.

That's really interesting @ArthurbellaScott . So chemically castrated paedophiles continue to sexuality offend children? Also, could you tell me, what is the distinction made in medicine between a fetish/paraphilia existing and being a disorder? And is there a difference between a fetish and a paraphilia?

There’s an entire chapter in WPATH’s Standards of Care devoted to males who desire having their bollocks chopped off that was written in conjunction with a man who hosts a private forum full of abusive pornographic material fantasising about boys having their bollocks chopped off.

So chopping off bollocks and porn are intrinsically woven into trans medical therapy. Literally written into their own guidelines.

Both positions are lacking in evidence. Are you agreeing with me that this is the case?

But what exactly do you mean by "born innately trans"?

@BonfireLady I don't think anyone was mentioning removing genitalia as a solution.

I think you missed this:

Anne Lawrence suggested that AGP boys be identified young and be castrated as it would lead to better transition, whilst I don't think anyone here wants them to transition, there does seem to be some agreement over the castration element because that would stop the escalation in behaviour.

Identification of AGP boys could be around behaviour, such as stealing women's underwear or watching pornography (which some people earlier in the thread identified as the causes of AGP).

So not only should young boys have their bollocks cut off, but catching them on Pornhub is all the evidence needed to approve the surgery.

Great news for all those who have spent the last decade or so furiously opposing the medicalisation of children by the trans lobby.

OK you got me.

The idea that pornography exposure is the cause of AGP is just as thoroughly well evidenced as the idea that some children are born innately trans. 😆

Sadists and paedophiles who were chemically castrated still had drives or urges but the treatment meant they were unable to release these through sex. This led in some cases to more violent acts. Which is why, as I understand it, its not recommended as 'treatment'.

Underlying most paraphilias is the drive for non consensual participation. And there is a distinction made in medicine between a fetish/paraphilia existing and being a disorder.

That's without the fact there's a "method" for "eunuchgender". And people aligned to that who DO think they have carte blanche!

And yet the trans lobby seems to have convinced large numbers of people that "trans children" exist, despite there being no scientific evidence that children can be "really trans", or there even being a definition of what it means to be "really trans".

There is no scientific evidence that so called "trans children" are anything other than children who are gender nonconforming, children who will grow up to be gay, or children who are reacting to some kind of trauma or other difficulty in their lives.

In terms of what age the malaga airport stuff starts, I watched some of a Menno YouTube yesterday about this book https://www.amazon.co.uk/Transpositions-Personal-journeys-gender-criticism-ebook/dp/B0BMM5KGJR

And in it, the Malaga airport shenanigans are mentioned in respect of a 17 year old caught wanking into his mother's knickers and saying he likes to think of himself with breasts. He himself says that it is a fetish. So I guess it can start fairly young.

Is isn't a No. It is a 'why not think about the reasons this doesn't exist'? Like we do when we analyse things? You know, using that scientific method that seems to have completely overlooked this area?

I don't think anyone was mentioning removing genitalia as a solution.
Sadly there are boys who are choosing this themselves (it's not an informed choose at all, given the bias in the care pathway) as part of their "gender affirming care".
The outcome then being that their sex drive drops. Dr Az has called out this group in his book because there are enough detransitioners who meet this description to be of notable significance. They will differ from the detransitioners who have realised that they are gay men, because both groups are driven to transition for totally different reasons, so would need a different therapeutic approach to help them.

Hopefully enough is known already about the links of animé and gaming avatars to start to unpick this, without a study in to the impact of porn being needed. I agree @AlisonDonut , that kind of a study is not going to be proposed any time soon (if indeed ever). I presume in the early days of a link between smoking and cancer being proposed there would have been a danger in proposing any studies, given the amount of money that is made in the tobacco industry. The difficulty with the acronym is that it's unclear what scale this is on. Certainly not on the scale of smoking but notable enough to be an identifiable cohort. I'm assuming a critical mass of detransitioners calling this out would be needed for any kind of study to be proposed in the first place.

Absolutely no one should be even mentioning castration as a potential "solution" to agp or any other issue.

What a complete mess the therapeutic and medical community have gotten themselves into. "Gender" doctors, surgeons, endocrinologists, psychiatrists, psychotherapists have all failed children and adults, some because they are in thrall to the ideology, some because they want the money, and lots just seem to lack any kind of professional curiosity.

I'm sorry, where are you seeing agreement here that children can have fetishes or that any child should be castrated?

Anne Lawrence did indeed say that. On that occasion, SoM and SA did at least have the decency to put a (weak) disclaimer in their description:

The end of the conversation took an unexpected turn when she described mindset, the intensity and the desperate measures that seem so reasonable when you’re tortured with severe autodynephellia. For the record Anne has not been involved in the field for many years and her reflections do not encompass the ROGD phenomenon. Tella and I feel it's important to listen to ppls exp so we can understand all the manifestations of gd. However we believe in the power of therapeutic intervention and we don’t think a nihilistic approach is helpful to deeply distressed individuals.

So no then?

Last I looked, scientific method doesn't mean you have carte blanche to assume whatever confirms your prejudices is true, just because there might be political problems involved in gathering the data to prove whether it actually is.

The mantra amongst TRAs is that AGP doesn’t exist.

Imagine the furore if someone tried to draw a link between porn and AGP. AGP doesn’t exist. Rinse and repeat.

What do you think would happen to anyone wanting to actually carry out this study to determine whether this is true or not?

So is there any actual evidence that AGP is caused by exposure to pornography?

The thing that should be explored is the idea that older boys are 'groomed' into AGP behaviour through porn and general acceptance. Would these boys always have become the adult agps, and awareness has just accelerated their behavior. Or are we creating them?

I think they have been created. As much as there has always been transvestism, porn (especially sissy porn, and sissy hypno porn) has created AGP men in vast numbers.

Timely tweet from Genevieve Gluck tonight:

We all know that adult AGPs need the concept of child AGPs to exist - to affirm their identity.

Exactly.

We always been aware of adult men dressing as women for sexual gratification. We have always been aware of young boys liking dressing up, either because of play or just liking something about items of clothing.

What is recent is that we've named these two distinct groups (agp and gnc boys) and included them both under the trans umbrella. Of course adult men will use children to justify their behaviour and claim its innate.

The thing that should be explored is the idea that older boys are 'groomed' into AGP behaviour through porn and general acceptance. Would these boys always have become the adult agps, and awareness has just accelerated their behavior. Or are we creating them?

I find it hard to accept that paraphilias are innate though. It feels like a slippery slope pushing societal acceptance. And I won’t accept paraphilias, especially public ones, and harmful ones.

We all know that adult AGPs need the concept of child AGPs to exist - to affirm their identity. Ditto the tran identified adults who need trans children to exist to affirm their identities.

Like the MAP movement in some academic circles which seeks to rebrand being sexually attracted to children as something that is innate, cannot be helped and is deserving of nothing but sympathy, so the idea of AGP being innate is a slippery slope IMO.

TL;DR Anne Lawrence can hardly be relied upon to offer an impartial take on the concept of kids having sexual fetishes.

Nice to see some both practical and enlightened solutions being offered. Perhaps we could go back to chopping off the hands of thieves while we're at it.

Mumsnet at its worst really is a cesspit of human depravity.