Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
26
RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 13:29

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:19

If it was just a matter of socialisation, then all males in a certain type of society would behave in the same way. They don't.

They do. The patterns of violence are roughly similar in all patriarchal societies on a population level.

None of this undermines the fact that males ( as a population) have a greater propensity for sexual/ violence/paraphilia/fetish than women.

Agreed

Your whole hypotheses rests on the concept of a patriarchal society which socialises males to be violent. Perhaps you should also question why most societies are patriarchal in the first? place?

Plus, all males do not behave the same in any given society. The reason is that individuals don't operate as identity groups in the way that intersectionalism would prefer they did( in order for it to justify or explain the concept of group power)

OP posts:
Rudderneck · 16/09/2023 13:29

The anicient Kush society isn't evidence of much, we don't know enough about what day to day life looked like there. We do know that in many matriarchal societies we know about more clearly, like the Iroquois, men were still mainly responsible for things like warfare.

We also know that among many other mammals, males are more aggressive overall. That doesn't mean they are never gentle, nor that female animals are never aggressive, we aren't working in absolutes here. But it's universally accepted in biology that this is a thing, and humans are not somehow outside of that.

Where biological determinism and free will intersect, in human beings, is a difficult question. St Augustine, living in the last days of the Roman Empire, maintained that we do have free will, but that it is compromised by the effects of the Fall, so that human beings are subject to original sin to the point that sometimes we can't even know if we ourselves are entirely culpable for certain acts, or were entirely at the mercy of our weaknesses of mind and body. The only solution, he suggests, is to trust that God knows the difference and depend on his mercy for the rest, and go forward as best you can with the assurance that you are saved, if that's what you want. That's in terms of the soul though, he doesn't suggest it changes how the law deals with people.

I'm not sure that modern psychology really gives us a better answer than that.

In any case, given that I am personally quite affected by my own hormonal fluctuations, and have just had to apologize to a friend for over-reacting to a comment which I would be unlikely to have done were I not in the throes of PMS, I don't really see this as much of a controversy.

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 13:27

I'm no expert on this stuff, but apparently, if still controversial, castration and chemical castration may well work to some degree:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824348/

There is no robust data on effectiveness. However, reviews of the data that are available report that, over follow-up periods ranging from 1 to 35 years, recidivism rates of 2.5–7.5 percent were found after surgical castration compared to 60–84 percent in offenders left “untreated” (Heim and Hursch 1979; Weinberger et al. 2005).

...

Chemical castration via administration of CPA and MPA has been found effective in reducing recidivism in sexual offenders with paraphilias in some small-scale, controlled studies (e.g., Fedoroff et al. 1992; Maletzky, Tolan, and McFarland 2006; Meyer et al. 1992). However, other studies found no significant effect (e.g., Hucker, Langevin, and Bain 1988; Maletzky 1991).2 Several studies have shown high efficacy rates for GnRH agonists in dramatically reducing testosterone levels and self-reported deviant sexual desires and behaviours, including in individuals who did not respond to CPA or MPA. However, no randomised controlled trials have yet been published (Thibaut et al. 2010).

Thus, for both traditional agents and GnRH agonists, evidence for effectiveness is not robust. Moreover, chemical castration appears to be ineffective in antisocial or psychopathic sex offenders who do not suffer from paraphilia (Berlin 2009), and certain comorbidities may preclude effective intervention in individuals with paraphilia (Saleh and Guidry 2003).

Coercion, Incarceration, and Chemical Castration: An Argument From Autonomy

In several jurisdictions, sex offenders may be offered chemical castration as an alternative to further incarceration. In some, agreement to chemical castration may be made a formal condition of parole or release. In others, refusal to undergo chemical...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824348

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2023 13:15

Now imagine asking the same question but replacing "transgender" with the name of a race or religion. How would people react?

If that was the case, don't you think questions should be asked? It may be that they are being disproportionately imprisoned for sex offences compared to other races or religions, no?

Clymene · 16/09/2023 13:14

LizaBizza · 16/09/2023 13:06

"Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders? "

Now imagine asking the same question but replacing "transgender" with the name of a race or religion. How would people react?

Do you have any stats for that? Because as far as I know , particular ethnicities or religions are not over represented in the convicted sex offender population. Whereas transwomen are.

Or are you proposing we don't discuss facts?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2023 13:11

Most of these males only seem to discover their inner womanliness after getting caught, @DuesToTheDirt, so that wouldn't really apply.

And then some of them seem to realise that they were actually men all along on release from prison.

LizaBizza · 16/09/2023 13:06

"Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders? "

Now imagine asking the same question but replacing "transgender" with the name of a race or religion. How would people react?

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 13:05

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:50

It doesn’t make sense that people are ruled by biology. That’s what I stated from the very first, and if you go back to the start, that comment is exactly what I am being criticised for saying.

You made the claim that "biological essentialism" would be "excusing men of their agency".

My point, is if (we imagine) that's correct about biology, why wouldn't it be correct about socialisation?

What's the difference?

I'm asking you to support your claim that "biological essentialism" would excuse men of their agency.

334bu · 16/09/2023 13:00

The % of convicts convicted of sexual offences does not show that TW are disproportionately violent towards or sexual predators of women compared to men. It’s the wrong calculation to show whether that is the case or not.

So what is the correct calculation?

Convicted male offenders - 19% sex offenders.
Convicted transwomen -47% sex offenders
Convicted female offenders - 2% sex offenders

In what way does the above not show that men who identify as women are not disproportionately sexually violent?

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:50

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 12:45

So why would biology playing a factor "excuse agency" then?

People aren't completely controlled by socialisation, (despite it apparently massively increasing violent crime according to you), but they would be completely controlled by biology?

How does that make sense?

It doesn’t make sense that people are ruled by biology. That’s what I stated from the very first, and if you go back to the start, that comment is exactly what I am being criticised for saying.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:49

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:44

That's pish, pal. My posts have included links to back up what I've said. In common with most posters on here, that's what we do. Actually back up assertations with evidence.

You've just said whatever random shit pops into your head and offered absolutely no evidence to back it up.

As I said, 'because I said so' doesn't work here.

Your posts on matters other than the causes of violence have included links as have my posts.

However, no one has posted any evidence men’s testosterone emitting balls are the primary or even a “very important” cause of male violence.

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 12:45

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:32

No socialisation doesn’t excuse agency. The very thought of that! Just like being abused as a child doesn’t rob you of your agency or excuse you from abusing your own children.

Yes we have drugged, surgically and chemically castrated, done hormone treatments and none of it has worked at all, ever on reducing reoffending rates. This is yet more evidence that it’s not biological differences causing violence.

So why would biology playing a factor "excuse agency" then?

People aren't completely controlled by socialisation, (despite it apparently massively increasing violent crime according to you), but they would be completely controlled by biology?

How does that make sense?

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:44

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:36

Ditto for you my friend. Now we can get into the usual posting of links that no one reads and most tend to cherry pick and then argue over what each link says. Or we can just accept that we have different viewpoints.

There are those who think men are less culpable for being violent because hormones and then there is me and I dare say others that view that as a disproved excuse that engenders continued acceptance of a society where men are more violent and so women must modify their behaviour to accommodate this disability.

That's pish, pal. My posts have included links to back up what I've said. In common with most posters on here, that's what we do. Actually back up assertations with evidence.

You've just said whatever random shit pops into your head and offered absolutely no evidence to back it up.

As I said, 'because I said so' doesn't work here.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:39

334bu · 16/09/2023 12:36

Still doesn't explain why so many male offenders who identify as women are sex offenders. So what socialisation and or psychological differences make this group of men disproportionately violent towards women?

The % of convicts convicted of sexual offences does not show that TW are disproportionately violent towards or sexual predators of women compared to men. It’s the wrong calculation to show whether that is the case or not.

334bu · 16/09/2023 12:36

Still doesn't explain why so many male offenders who identify as women are sex offenders. So what socialisation and or psychological differences make this group of men disproportionately violent towards women?

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:36

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:06

You've posted no evidence to back up any of your assertations.

Ditto for you my friend. Now we can get into the usual posting of links that no one reads and most tend to cherry pick and then argue over what each link says. Or we can just accept that we have different viewpoints.

There are those who think men are less culpable for being violent because hormones and then there is me and I dare say others that view that as a disproved excuse that engenders continued acceptance of a society where men are more violent and so women must modify their behaviour to accommodate this disability.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:32

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 12:09

But that would apply just as easily to your own position when you blame it on "socialisation".

Males aren't to blame for their early socialisation or growing up in a patriarchal society and it's very difficult for any individual to change that society.

So if men are more violent for this reason of "socialisation", then not their fault right?

So you appear just as guilty of "excusing men of their agency", if anyone is doing that.

If you think that biology makes men more violent, then why punish? Firstly because you think it's only one factor and men should still have control of themselves and are responsible for their actions. Or alternatively, you could just look at it as "deterrence works" regardless of whether people are truly responsible.

And of course we do sometimes try giving sex offenders drugs. I haven't checked the success of such methods. But hormones have been tried. SSRI antidepressants have been tried because they undermine sexual fantasy.

We will also use castration on dogs which I think is supposed to limit some aggressive behaviour.

No socialisation doesn’t excuse agency. The very thought of that! Just like being abused as a child doesn’t rob you of your agency or excuse you from abusing your own children.

Yes we have drugged, surgically and chemically castrated, done hormone treatments and none of it has worked at all, ever on reducing reoffending rates. This is yet more evidence that it’s not biological differences causing violence.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:26

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 12:13

You haven't been clear at all. Now it transpires that some of your posts are assertions and some of your posts are hypotheticals and somehow we are supposed to be able to work out the difference. You may not be able to to draw conclusions from the data but it is pretty clear to the rest of us that those men who ID as "trans" in prison are far more likely than other men to be convicted sex offenders. The question of this thread is WHY that is the case.

There’s not much point to discussing the why, because it’s such a isolated data point that it doesn’t tell us much.

The data point does not show that TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders because it is not measuring offender rates for sexual offences.

To get a view as to whether TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders you have to look at offending rates on a whole population basis, not % of convicts basis.

Then depending, on what the results are, we can look at why there might be differences if they are statistically significant and other confounding factors are adequately addressed.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:19

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 12:00

If it was just a matter of socialisation, then all males in a certain type of society would behave in the same way. They don't. The reason for that is that there is an inter-play between the biological/physical, the emotional/ psychological and the social, in all of us. They cannot be separated.

None of this undermines the fact that males ( as a population) have a greater propensity for sexual/ violence/paraphilia/fetish than women.

If it was just a matter of socialisation, then all males in a certain type of society would behave in the same way. They don't.

They do. The patterns of violence are roughly similar in all patriarchal societies on a population level.

None of this undermines the fact that males ( as a population) have a greater propensity for sexual/ violence/paraphilia/fetish than women.

Agreed

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 12:13

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:03

I’m sorry if I haven’t been clear, but when you have a statistic that is % of convicts then it is obvious to me how that was calculated and also what conclusions we can arrive at from that data point.

As it is % of convicts, it tells us nothing about relative offending rates of transwomen vs men or women within the population as a whole.

You haven't been clear at all. Now it transpires that some of your posts are assertions and some of your posts are hypotheticals and somehow we are supposed to be able to work out the difference. You may not be able to to draw conclusions from the data but it is pretty clear to the rest of us that those men who ID as "trans" in prison are far more likely than other men to be convicted sex offenders. The question of this thread is WHY that is the case.

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 12:09

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 10:09

No they don’t play an important part at all in our behaviours.

I rather think that the ideology of biological essentialism is more damaging because if, as you imply, men truly cannot help being more violent due to their hormones or whatever, then why are they being punished for something they cannot control? We should abolish all prisons and just give rapists and murderers some HRT to calm them down.

That is where this nonsense that excuses men of their agency leads to.

But that would apply just as easily to your own position when you blame it on "socialisation".

Males aren't to blame for their early socialisation or growing up in a patriarchal society and it's very difficult for any individual to change that society.

So if men are more violent for this reason of "socialisation", then not their fault right?

So you appear just as guilty of "excusing men of their agency", if anyone is doing that.

If you think that biology makes men more violent, then why punish? Firstly because you think it's only one factor and men should still have control of themselves and are responsible for their actions. Or alternatively, you could just look at it as "deterrence works" regardless of whether people are truly responsible.

And of course we do sometimes try giving sex offenders drugs. I haven't checked the success of such methods. But hormones have been tried. SSRI antidepressants have been tried because they undermine sexual fantasy.

We will also use castration on dogs which I think is supposed to limit some aggressive behaviour.

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:06

You've posted no evidence to back up any of your assertations.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:06

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 11:49

You mean in the same way that " more research needs to be done" when it comes to males in women's sports?

No. The issues are completely different.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:04

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:01

It's been quite astonishing, given that posters on this board habitually back up every assertation with links and evidence, to see posters refuse to do the same.

'Because I said so' doesn't work here.

No one has really posted any evidence on the causes of violence. And why should we? It’s a side bar.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:03

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 11:03

I have no idea. Where are you getting your data from on this to do the basic maths?

I’m sorry if I haven’t been clear, but when you have a statistic that is % of convicts then it is obvious to me how that was calculated and also what conclusions we can arrive at from that data point.

As it is % of convicts, it tells us nothing about relative offending rates of transwomen vs men or women within the population as a whole.

Swipe left for the next trending thread