Caster Semenya has won in the ECHR

Perhaps you should read about the DSD that Semenya actually has rather than telling others to 'try critical thining', and 'Making up lies doesn't strengthen your point'.

Semenya was tested and knew they were male as they started to compete in championships. Yes? No? Is this a lie?

WE KNOW they have 5ARD. There has been media reporting this since 2009. They also have reported in some media that Limpopo is known to have a higher % of male people with this DSD. There are reports of international talent scouts targeting this particular region to find runners just like Semenya. It was already known that these athletes had physical advantages that female competitors lacked and those talent scouts used the changes to the DSD rules to find runners with those conditions. It has been written about, but it is not well publicised.

"I was responding to a post that says she is a male and identifies as a male and that is all there is to this story."

At this point, that IS all there is to this story. Why do you believe that a person who has been proven to have been through male puberty should be allowed to continue to compete?

"She raced as a child - in girls races"

Their coach stated that when Semenya started to 'race', the coach raced Semenya against 'boys'.

He also referred to Semenya as 'he'.

"But this was not some great scam of someone born male who identifies as male who scammed the world by pretending to be female to win money."

They have known they were male since at least 2009. At what point did Semenya, knowing they were male, not use the system to win money? They knew and they still chose to do so. As I said, there are athletes who after the discovery chose to compete as male people.

"Her family told stories about how people would check her genitals as a child as they didn't believe she was a girl but then realized she was after checking."

Realized she was what? A person with ambiguous genitalia? This statement is absolute nonsense. Semenya is a male. And yes, did have their genitals checked when that should not have been necessary.

It was only necessary because cheek swabs were changed under regulations from between 1990 to 1996 just to allow males such as this to compete from 1996, from when only athletes who experts felt were potentially males had to. I believe this was done for 'inclusiveness'. They didn't believe that those males would win.

"Eight of 3387 female athletes (1:423) had positive test results. Of these, 7 had androgen insensitivity, 4 incomplete, and 3 complete; the other athlete had previously undergone gonadectomy and is presumed to have 5-alpha-steroid reductase deficiency. All individuals were given appropriate gender verification certificates and were permitted to compete.[11]"

They actually KNEW that 8 athletes competing at the Atlanta games were male athletes competing in female events.

Here are two articles

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/OlympicGenderTesting.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5152729/ 

"This nonsense you and others are spouting about how she was born male and is male and identifies as male and has always been male is just as ridiculous as the other side of the debate."

Perhaps you could tell me what is nonsense about the following statements:

Semenya was born male
Semenya was always a male

It doesn't matter what Semenya identifies as. They have definitively known they were a male with 5ARD since 2009 and chose to continue to claim prize money and sponsorship. As a MALE.

No lies. And it really seems that you don't really know what you are talking about.

Of course Caster's life story is dramatic and their condition is unfortunate.

There are a lot of sad fates out there though. Doesn't entitle you to a gold medal outside your sex category. It just doesn't.

I have been shouting at the radio today as all the news reports have stated that CS was born female but has a medical condition that causes "her" to produce higher than normal testosterone. It is infuriating.

Or should males just keep out of female competition, no matter how they identify

Yes they should. If escape the endless gaslighting, it is not nearly as complicated as some insist.

CS was accommodated by new rules that allowed their inclusion in female competition as long as they took testosterone suppressing drugs.

Caster found that their performance was reduced by lowering their testosterone and wants to be able to compete without medication.

Hypothetically, an intact, testosterone-sensitive male, who has been through male puberty with the benefits to skeletal size, respiratory & cardiac volume, muscle strength etc, being allowed to participate in female athletics with no restriction could open the way to any male competing who also identifies as female.

What's the difference in fact between CS and a transwoman really in terms of their competitive advantage? Should transwomen also be allowed to compete using their "natural female raised testosterone levels"? Or should males just keep out of female competition, no matter how they identify or whatever mistakes were made when they were pre-pubescent children (mistakes that would have been obvious in CS's case when their body was fully virilised aged c.12yo?)

Thank you for the interesting thread I would not have known, had thought Semenya was a women with a DSD, need to RTFT.
Can I ask what is the change made by officials for women’s competition and how will it apply to Semenya if Semenya is biologically male?

I guess none of us know for certain what happened when Caster was young, as we weren't there.

However, Caster is male and should compete with men. Caster is not good enough to compete with elite men, and has made a career out of competing with elite women, which isn't fair.

I truly hope that Caster and others are not given the green light to compete in the 800m again, as this would deprive us of a fantastic competition including Keely Hodginson, Athling Mu, Mary Moraa and Renelle Lamote.

On the contrary, Caster Semenya was effectively brought up as a boy; wore the boys school uniform; was not permitted to play football with the girls because was" too rough", and so on. In interviews is very dismissive of women as being " too soft" and so on.

No-one is spouting.

You are exaggerating what you have read here though.

Unfortunately, it's happening in Women's Football now, too. https://www.si.com/fannation/soccer/futbol/news/barbra-banda-to-play-at-womens-world-cup-fifa-gender-ruling

'Barbra' helped Zambia beat Germany, one of the top female teams in the world last week in a friendly. 'She' scored two goals by outpacing the female defenders so dramatically, they might as well not have even tried. I watched the game and 'she' was so over the top aggressive a lot of the German players were visibly uncomfortable.

She's been approved to play at the World Cup by FIFA despite previously failing gender verification tests.

There is some evidence that Semenya has always identified as a man. Semenya's headmaster is on the record as saying she was 17 before he realised she was a girl. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/aug/20/caster-semenya-gender-world-championship-dispute

Semenya is married to a woman. Whilst gay marriage is legal in South Africa, Semenya dressed as a man for the wedding.

There is also a video, which I think has already been linked to, in which Semenya is very derogatory about girls in a way which makes it clear she does not and did not consider herself one of them.

Unlike the biology, Semenya's identity is not cut and dried. There is evidence either way. But the biology is clear, and it's biology we run with.

This. That video further up. Looks like a man,sounds like a man,sits like man. Butch biological females are still clearly female. If Caster is female them I'm Usain Bolt.

I'm afraid from what I've read, it's probably some of both.

This athlete was born with a very difficult and rare situation, they didn't discover their sex for some years into childhood and their situation was extremely useful to the athlete and to sponsors in exploiting female sports.

Semenya has fathered children and wishes to compete as a female athlete.

I am very sorry for the situation they had to face in their childhood, but female sports and fairness to women isn't a consolation prize for men who have had a hard time.

Semenya was born male and is male. Clearly Semenya was raised as a girl from birth, and chose not to change gender identity when it became apparent as a teenager/adult that they were male with a DSD.

The relevant point is that Semenya's male puberty and continuing male adult physiology gives an unfair advantage over female athletes.

Reports from childhood do show and her family has reported that they were told she was a girl and she was raised as a girl. She was identified as female for school and in life. The others in her life told her she was a girl. They are DSD. The exact condition is known (5α-Reductase 2 deficiency). This was not some well orchastrated deceptive plan from birth to create a female athlete from a male baby. This was in a poor family and village in South Africa.

I was responding to a post that says she is a male and identifies as a male and that is all there is to this story.

That is nonsense. Some of the posters on this thread have less critical thinking than the ones they are arguing against. Should she compete as a female athlete - no. But this was not some great scam of someone born male who identifies as male who scammed the world by pretending to be female to win money. She raced as a child - in girls races. Why? Because her family had been told she was a girl. They registered her at school as a girl. Her family told stories about how people would check her genitals as a child as they didn't believe she was a girl but then realized she was after checking.

This nonsense you and others are spouting about how she was born male and is male and identifies as male and has always been male is just as ridiculous as the other side of the debate. Try critical thinking. Making up lies doesn't strengthen you point.

By the way, the very fact that Semenya is probably still able to compete at the age they are is also going to be due to their being male.

A quick look over the medallists since 2008 show one extraordinary Moroccan women who won a bronze medal at 30. The women winning in the 2020 Olympics were much younger. Semenya is now 32.

Males tend to be able to compete at elite level in the female category much longer than female athletes. This is a well known issue.

I think you will find that Semenya has not 'lived as a female' as per reports from people who have known Semenya as a child. They have an undeveloped penis, they might have a shallow undeveloped vagina. But they did not have typical female 'genitalia'.

Castor identifies as a female for sport and that seems to be all Castor identifies as a female for. They have known for sure that they were male since they were first tested.

Other male athletes upon hearing this news have been reported as going and competing as male athletes, yet Semenya chose not to.

It doesn't matter whether you believe Semenya did or didn't know or that they might or might not live as a 'woman'. The female sports category is not for male people as some kind of consolation prize that they were assigned female by mistake. It really is not.

You can declare it is a complex situation until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the facts. When Semenya had their male sex confirmed, Semenya made sure that they still competed as a female. Semenya won in events that were for females and deprived female athletes of the prizes, sponsorship and the acknowledgment that went to a 'male'. This was done by a male person who very much knew they had been through male puberty.

"I don't believe there is any evidence that they have every said that they identify as a male."

Whether they identify as male or not, they have known for a very long time and have continued to do this. By the way, the very fact that Semenya is probably still able to compete at the age they are is also going to be due to their being male.

@heckmuffin Dont believe everything you read on this thread. Castor is a male with a DSD but was told they were a female at birth and were raised as a female based on the information available at that time. They have female external genitalia

Castor identfies as a female but presents in a masculine way. I don't believe there is any evidence that they have every said that they identify as a male.

It is a complex situation.

Me too. Thanks all for the very informative thread. If only the reporting on this case was clearer.

Whoops @bexyo
Classic case of being completely ignorant about a topic but spouting strong opinions nonetheless.

I agree with all of that, hence my opener, "...I don't believe that xy athletes should be anywhere near women's sport..." - but in a world of second best, i.e. where it's been deemed that some 'compromise' is desirable, from a PR point of view, a policy that instantly reminds the audience that the athlete in question is male has to be far superior to one that requires them to take some meds to alter their hormonal balance?

bexyo · Today 11:58

Fucking hell what a nasty and untrue comment.

Well, as you will have seen from all the previous posts here, it's not nasty and is entirely true. He's definitely male.

Castor was told she was a female from birth based on external genitalia. If you read stories about her childhood, she did not conform to gender based stereotypes and resisted feminine clothes and activities. She was masculine and stood out from her female peers due to her size and always wearing masculine clothes, masculine hair cuts and doing more male oriented activities and referring to play with the boys.

she did not come from a SES or health care system or modern society that was well informed about DSD. When they realized she was fast, she was then a money maker for her family and community and a ticket out of poverty. Given she had been told she was female from birth and forced into female social roles, it must have been quite overwhelming to later have people then try to say you weren’t female. But by that point she needed to be female to make money.

it seems she is now presenting very masculine again and in a masculine role within her family.

African sports exploited DSD individuals. The atheletes didn’t have a lot of choice and when it is your ticket out of poverty, you take it.

Removal of testes still will not change the body's programming to develop the body as it has been already genetically programmed.

A castrated child will likely be taller than average, maybe taller than they would have grown with their testes intact. This is still an advantage that these males continue to have despite ‘puberty blockers’. This is where future studies will start to focus on these cases. This may also then bring in those athletes with CAIS who are currently not the focus of regulations.

Lidewij Sophia Boogers, Chantal Maria Wiepjes, Daniel Tatting Klink, Ilse Hellinga, Adrianus Sarinus Paulus van Trotsenburg, Martin den Heijer,
Sabine Elisabeth Hannema

published: 06 June 2022

academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgac349/6603101

It doesn't change the fact that even at the age of about 6 years old, male children are still beating female children consistently.

Plus never had an issue with menstrual cycles.

https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/06/24/acl-injuries-are-a-growing-problem

Plug this into archive dot is for the full version.

One of the most curious features of ACL injuries, though, is that they afflict women far more often than men—as much as eight times more, some investigations suggest. Why this might be is the subject of intensive research. But a clue lies in an apparent connection with the menstrual cycle.

A study published in 2013, of a group of women skiers in the Alps, for example, found that those in the pre-ovulatory stage of the cycle were more than twice as likely to suffer an ACL tear than were those in the post-ovulatory stage. A four-year survey of 113 female England footballers, published in March, also found a clear correlation. Muscle and tendon injuries were far more common in the late follicular phase of the cycle, just prior to ovulation, than in the other phases.

The reason for this menstrual-cycle link is unclear. The ACL has oestrogen receptors, which might help to explain what is happening. But it is not unique among ligaments in this, and the receptors’ job is, in any case, obscure. Levels of oestrogen in the body do spike just before ovulation—the point when tear-frequency rises—but uncertainty remains about the exact link.

Other contributory factors to women’s higher ACL tear rate may be female body shapes and movement patterns. Compared with men, women have wider hips, more inverted knees and “over-dominant“ quad muscles (meaning that the quadriceps femoris muscle group in front of the thigh bone is relatively stronger than the hamstring group behind it). All these factors put pressure on the elaborate workings of the knee joint. Women also tend to land in a more flat-footed manner than men do, and to pivot more awkwardly.

whilst I don't believe that xy athletes should be anywhere near women's sport, from a PR perspective, if there really had to be a condition under which they'd have been showing in, it should have been the removal of testicles. that'd have had the same impact on T levels and much more importantly would have reminded people with only a passing interest in the case what the issues are here.