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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Disneyland greeter

183 replies

Neverplayleapfrogwithmrpipes · 31/05/2023 07:59

https://twitter.com/jonesville/status/1663381709667303425?s=46&t=mjCevLYB8rsDn2VcwfsB7w

This popped up on my Twitter regarding a Disney greeter called Nick in a dress.

https://twitter.com/jonesville/status/1663381709667303425?s=46&t=mjCevLYB8rsDn2VcwfsB7w

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LonginesPrime · 01/06/2023 12:02

IME I've not noticed any correlation between the skill level of a manicurist and their biological sex - I've had great ones from both sexes and appalling ones from both sexes. Ditto re haircuts.

But it makes sense that some women are going to feel a bit weirded out by having a male do a hand massage as part of the manicure or a head massage at the hairdressers, and I must admit I do ask them to just skip the whole sensuous massage thing if it's a male, whereas I'm fine with that stuff if it's another female. That's just my personal preference as it feels quite intimate to me.

There are quite a few male manicurists in my area as they're typically the sons of family business owners who have grown up doing it, and I think it's positive that it's a potential career option nowadays for boys as well as girls if they're into that kind of thing.

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 01/06/2023 11:59

I don't really know how to articulate this.

To me it seems more about the employee's experience rather than the paying customers'. As a child I wouldn't have been comfortable with a man in a dress, sporting facial hair and wearing make up (and/or a wig). I didn't like pantomime dames either. I don't know why, maybe I was a prejudiced child? I came from a very liberal home and understood gay acceptance from an early age (as opposed to classmates in the mid 80s, you can imagine the taunts).
The man in the video would've triggered an uneasiness, probably connected to stranger danger and so on (though we were never specifically taught to fear men in dresses/wearing make up). Honestly from an early age I think we connected it to being fetishy, especially when sported by a bog-standard bloke from your area (who didn't remotely pass as female) as opposed to some refined theatrical performer or pop star.
I'm also on the autistic spectrum so maybe that has something to do with processing it. I still don't feel 100% at ease around men in female costume to this day even though my brain is reassuring me.

I'm conflicted as at the end of the day it is only a costume or a uniform. Are there any other examples of male employees dressing as female characters in the Disney parks? Other than the costumes with a giant head like Minnie Mouse etc 😁 I guess female employees could dress as male characters (I'm thinking along the lines of Robin Hood). On the other hand I can imagine guests being confused and disappointed if one of the main 'macho' male characters, a Disney prince/superhero/villain with no cartoon 'head' to conceal the person's face was worn by a woman. People go to have their photos taken and immerse themselves in the experience, it's probably not the same if the character doesn't reflect the canon.

Dress however you want in your personal life but it seems like the employee has deliberately set out to be subversive and stand out, revelling in the attention. Also being connected to the (predominantly) little girls' dress up boutique, not wandering around the park in a general role or in a parade. They'd have had to push for this and I doubt their employers were keen in the first instance but relented due to fear of TRAs and repercussions across social media for not being sufficiently liberal (I'm liberal myself though not far left). Pure speculation of course but generally you go to work and your wear the accepted uniform. You don't start badgering to wear your preference unless it concerns adjustments for disability, religious or plus size requirements.

The costumes are based on Disney princesses (?). Disney princesses don't typically have male facial hair, gaudy make up and adult male physique. This person knows it's not really de rigeur and that many customers (perhaps immediate colleagues too) may feel uncomfortable about that. Why does this have to be normalized (because of this individual's demands) and children's and parents' boundaries broken down? Why does this individual want to elevate their wants and needs while at work? Disney have already tried to promote gender and sexuality themes in some of their more recent output and it hasn't been well received since it's aimed at children. I'm not just talking about conservatives either - parents in the centre politically aren't necessarily keen either.

I don't think it's the same as dads and male relatives playing fancy dress with kids they're related to. You don't typically see men walking around in society wearing elaborate dresses, facial hair and make up during the day (unless they're on their way to DQST or a Pride parade 🤭). You wouldn't necessarily trust the intentions if such a person approached your small child in the street for a chat. They're a stranger after all and dressed subversively. I guess this comes back to societal norms and the potential for it being AGP rather than innocent.

BodegaSushi · 01/06/2023 11:42

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 10:19

In fact. I got a massive infection in my finger after one bloke did it and nail fungi in my toe after another- there’s something off about it. Perhaps the fact that they are a married couple in your experience makes a difference.

Also, I do have different boundaries to other women anyway because I always insist on female doctors- some women are even cool with male gynaecologists. I don’t get that at all.

Fair enough we all have different experiences, but I don’t think that an opinion that men don’t belong in certain work (and by extension only women belong in certain work) should be taken as a general view on how society should work.

oh and my grandfather was a gynaecologist and delivered me and my brothers, so we definitely won’t see eye-to-eye there either 😂

Inamuddle36 · 01/06/2023 11:40

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AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 10:19

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 10:14

Your experience is different from mine.

In fact. I got a massive infection in my finger after one bloke did it and nail fungi in my toe after another- there’s something off about it. Perhaps the fact that they are a married couple in your experience makes a difference.

Also, I do have different boundaries to other women anyway because I always insist on female doctors- some women are even cool with male gynaecologists. I don’t get that at all.

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 10:14

BodegaSushi · 01/06/2023 10:13

I really think this is overthinking.

I’ve never regarded either experience as ‘intimate’ Confused

The nail salon I go to is run by a Vietnamese couple, I’ve had both husband and wife do my nails (SNS so it’s dipping into powder, no ‘intimate’ hand holding there, maybe other manicures are?)

The man actually is more skilled and my nails last longer than when his wife does it, but that’s beside the point. The experience is no different no matter who does it.

Your experience is different from mine.

BodegaSushi · 01/06/2023 10:13

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 08:07

I have feel intuitively averse to male manicurists and have felt put out when I have been given one I haven’t expected. I realise now I really hate the experience of a male stranger touching my hands and feet for so long, so I haven’t got it done for ages now. In fact now you mention it, I am going to ask if they are male or female in future and go somewhere else if I have a bloke.

I really don’t like male hairdressers either - I have only had a couple, but I feel more comfortable talking to a woman about what I am trying to achieve.

These are intimate experiences- where you are being looked at closely, touched, asked how you feel. Doing this with a stranger is bad enough, let alone someone of the opposite sex.

I really think this is overthinking.

I’ve never regarded either experience as ‘intimate’ Confused

The nail salon I go to is run by a Vietnamese couple, I’ve had both husband and wife do my nails (SNS so it’s dipping into powder, no ‘intimate’ hand holding there, maybe other manicures are?)

The man actually is more skilled and my nails last longer than when his wife does it, but that’s beside the point. The experience is no different no matter who does it.

MalagaNights · 01/06/2023 08:59

I would feel some discomfort about a man who worked in a shop exclusively for little girls clothes.

I feel even more discomfort about a man who dresses as a little girl working in a little girls clothes shop.

I really think we've lost our minds in an attempt to be non judgemental. Our feelings of discomfort and something being wrong are based on something. It's not all just 'prejudice' and 'social conditioning'.

Sometimes things feel wrong because they are wrong.

(Btw I do have a male hairdresser but I'm a grown women who has made a decision I'm comfortable with this particular man. Very different.)

HermioneWeasley · 01/06/2023 08:22

@Iyiyiiii I can’t think of a male hairdresser or beautician who exclusively works with girls under the age of 12. I would find that creepy.

AnalogueFondness · 01/06/2023 08:07

Iyiyiiii · 01/06/2023 07:58

So I assume you wouldnt be happy with a male hairdresser then? or a mail manicurist?

I have feel intuitively averse to male manicurists and have felt put out when I have been given one I haven’t expected. I realise now I really hate the experience of a male stranger touching my hands and feet for so long, so I haven’t got it done for ages now. In fact now you mention it, I am going to ask if they are male or female in future and go somewhere else if I have a bloke.

I really don’t like male hairdressers either - I have only had a couple, but I feel more comfortable talking to a woman about what I am trying to achieve.

These are intimate experiences- where you are being looked at closely, touched, asked how you feel. Doing this with a stranger is bad enough, let alone someone of the opposite sex.

Iyiyiiii · 01/06/2023 07:58

HermioneWeasley · 01/06/2023 07:01

Yes, because it’s incredibly unlikely that she would be getting any sort of sexual thrill from it or my daughter would be an unconsenting participant in her fetish

So I assume you wouldnt be happy with a male hairdresser then? or a mail manicurist?

HermioneWeasley · 01/06/2023 07:02

And @Iyiyiiii you don’t think it’s remotely noteworthy that of the thousands of different jobs at Disneyland, he wants the one that’s exclusively about giving little girls make overs?

HermioneWeasley · 01/06/2023 07:01

Iyiyiiii · 31/05/2023 22:46

So you'd be OK for an unknown woman to be touching your little girl?

Yes, because it’s incredibly unlikely that she would be getting any sort of sexual thrill from it or my daughter would be an unconsenting participant in her fetish

EscapeRoomToTheSun · 01/06/2023 00:39

Sorry is rigidly enforced gender roles the thing you're aiming for?

Datun · 01/06/2023 00:36

AnalogueFondness · 31/05/2023 15:52

I think people are being a bit naive if they think a man wouldn’t dress up as a fairy godmother for kink purposes.

Grayson Perry is open about they sexual element of his crossdressing, and this outfit he is wearing wouldn’t look out of place in Disney.

Grayson Perry goes into schools.

He has said that the reason he wears voluminous skirts in public is to hide his erection.

And that he had to get more and more outrageous walking around, because as he encountered increased acceptance, the shock factor wore off and it wasn't arousing enough.

We wouldn't be forensically analysing some bloke in a frock at Disney, if these bloody men didn't fetishise every fucking thing. If they didn't centre their boners in every single thing you could possibly imagine.

Iyiyiiii · 31/05/2023 23:29

Hannahsbananas · 31/05/2023 22:53

Are you suggesting there’s no actual difference?

In public, which is where this would happen, just like a hairdresser. It's not like they're taken off to a private room on their own....

Motorina · 31/05/2023 23:29

My (regrettable) experience of Disney is that it's full of very fat middle aged women wearing clothes styled for toddlers. Plus mouse ears.

My working assumption is that any Disney cast member has whatever the US equivalent of a DBS is, and that the child being made over is surrounded by fawning relatives with iphones capturing every moment for posterity. So I struggle to see that there's a safeguarding issue here.

Nick isn't (that we know) invading women's spaces, or getting off on the whole experience. If there were after-hours photos of him in the costume with a margarita and a strap-on then I'd be outraged. As is? I just wish someone had recut the polyester bodice so it fitted better.

MrsSkylerWhite · 31/05/2023 23:16

Would you have a problem with a girl in trousers?
It’s a garment, what’s the issue?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 31/05/2023 23:14

Hannahsbananas · 31/05/2023 23:00

Yeah, maybe…
Meanwhile in the real world we have a man wearing a dress that no actual female over the age of 7 would be seen dead in.
I find that all sorts of weird.

it's literally his uniform. Actual women over the age of 7 wear it in the same shop!

Realistically he probably is at least a trans ally, if not an enby, just because things are so polarised now that men think they can't be gender non-conforming without an identity label.

But I still think he's not doing anything wrong as long as the kids are safe and happy.

Hannahsbananas · 31/05/2023 23:00

FlirtsWithRhinos · 31/05/2023 22:55

um, there's no such thing as an actual Fairy Godmother full stop. It's all made up.

So maybe fairy godmother apprentices graduate to be fairy godfathers. Or maybe someone casts a spell at graduation and they become fairy godmothers, because while no real human can change sex really, imaginary magical people can absolutely change sex magically! Or maybe Godmother is an honoury title that men can also have in fairyland. Or maybe apprentices never progress to another role just like Santa's little helpers never become Santa. Or maybe all fairies are female even the ones with beards (like dwarves). Or maybe they have no concept of sex or gender and reproduce with acorns and moonlight.

Who knows? No one, because it's all made up.

I mean, I really am as gender critical as the next woman, I'm pretty sure I've proved that, and I care masively about the appropriation of female language for males, but even I think fairy tale characters can be allowed a bit of gender fluidity!

As long as Nick is not claiming to be a female person in real life and is safe to be with children (and whether or not I align with Disney's other brand values, I'm sure they do take safeguarding seriously so there's no reason to assume he's any less safe than his colleagues), good luck to him.

Yeah, maybe…
Meanwhile in the real world we have a man wearing a dress that no actual female over the age of 7 would be seen dead in.
I find that all sorts of weird.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 31/05/2023 22:55

Hannahsbananas · 31/05/2023 21:18

Most (all) workplace positions are available to both sexes, though.
There’s no such thing as a male Fairy Godmother.
Come on…. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

um, there's no such thing as an actual Fairy Godmother full stop. It's all made up.

So maybe fairy godmother apprentices graduate to be fairy godfathers. Or maybe someone casts a spell at graduation and they become fairy godmothers, because while no real human can change sex really, imaginary magical people can absolutely change sex magically! Or maybe Godmother is an honoury title that men can also have in fairyland. Or maybe apprentices never progress to another role just like Santa's little helpers never become Santa. Or maybe all fairies are female even the ones with beards (like dwarves). Or maybe they have no concept of sex or gender and reproduce with acorns and moonlight.

Who knows? No one, because it's all made up.

I mean, I really am as gender critical as the next woman, I'm pretty sure I've proved that, and I care masively about the appropriation of female language for males, but even I think fairy tale characters can be allowed a bit of gender fluidity!

As long as Nick is not claiming to be a female person in real life and is safe to be with children (and whether or not I align with Disney's other brand values, I'm sure they do take safeguarding seriously so there's no reason to assume he's any less safe than his colleagues), good luck to him.

Hannahsbananas · 31/05/2023 22:53

Iyiyiiii · 31/05/2023 22:46

So you'd be OK for an unknown woman to be touching your little girl?

Are you suggesting there’s no actual difference?

Iyiyiiii · 31/05/2023 22:46

HermioneWeasley · 31/05/2023 20:20

I have no issue with men in dresses, but there is something about the specifics of this which bothers me and I can’t quite put my finger on. There are literally hundreds of jobs in Disneyland and many of them have different uniform for men and women. He’s in the only one which is about make overs for little girls and involves touching them. Yes, he’s only greeting, but presumably once he stops being a trainee, he will be doing the girls’ hair and makeup?

i wouldn’t have an unknown man touching my little girl, I just wouldn’t. All they do in that job is makeovers for girls under 12 - literally nothing else.

So you'd be OK for an unknown woman to be touching your little girl?

zibzibara · 31/05/2023 21:37

Perhaps a more appropriate costume for this cheerful gent

Disneyland greeter
BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 21:29

Hannahsbananas · 31/05/2023 21:18

Most (all) workplace positions are available to both sexes, though.
There’s no such thing as a male Fairy Godmother.
Come on…. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

No, not being obtuse. I'm just pointing out that a fairy godmother's apprentice isn't by definition a male or female. It's a fictional fairy tale job, linked to a traditional fairy godmother character.

I'm not sure if it helps to hear it, but I vehemently oppose children being attracted towards trans identities as the answer to their distress at their growing bodies. As I said earlier on this thread, I don't believe there is any such thing as a trans child. However, I'm also not averse to Nick in a dress, on the assumption (I've seen nothing to suggest the contrary) that Nick is a man who is happy to show children that dresses are for anyone who wants to wear them (without dresses being sexualised of course).