Disneyland greeter

He couldn't wear a 'real' princess or godmother capsule as that's not his role.
Each area and attraction has its own specific costumes - with a male/female versions of each usually. They couldn't give him an entirely different costume unless he was employed to do an entirely different role.

I do think he probably needs a slightly different size as it isn't the best fit on him. That is likely due to him having a male body shape rather than a female one so the costume doesn't quite sit right in places. I'm not sure how much adjustment can be made in terms of fitting.

DD is due to start working there this month and the 'Disney look' and very specific costume rules are laid out and checked. Very few adjustments can be made.

Really insightful post.

A while ago Eddie Izzard said “It’s not a woman’s dress, it’s my dress” - it seemed so refreshing at the time.

But things have unfolded in such a way that we now know that it’s not ‘just a dress’. They are not ‘just clothes’. When a man wears a dress which was intended for women (as opposed to a kilt in Scotland or the thobe worn by Arab men) it has a different meaning to a woman wearing that dress.

As a feminist who rarely, if ever, wears a dress or skirt, I feel horror at the thought of not being able to wear trousers. So it’s easy to assume men and boys would feel the same about not being able to wear a skirt. But I don’t wear trousers to ‘express myself’, I wear them because it is comfortable and practical. I can do more and worry less wearing them.

Perhaps what is needed is more flamboyant clothes for men and boys - swishy trains, frilly necks, puffy sleeves and high heels - like the Georgians, instead of them putting on clothes meant for women’s bodies.

Can we have a middle ground, where we don't have rigidly enforced gender roles, but we also don't think that Disney is the right place to be transgressive?

Seems like it's a mixed response, and well, people are allowed to have different perspectives.

I'm glad OP brought it up though, as it's forced me to think about this issue in a way I hadn't really previously.

It's all very well gender for critical people (myself included) saying "but men should be free to wear dresses", but I think it is important to consider what that would look like and whether or not that is something the people saying this are actually ok with or not, and if not, why not? I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about it personally (for the various reasons I've outlined upthread), but I think it's helpful to be confronted with it and to be forced to examine whether this is what I'm actually gunning for in terms of "it's just clothes" or not.

I think the Venn diagram between social conservatism and gender-criticism is problematic for many feminists and I think it probably pushes lots of people towards acceptance of gender ideology on the assumption that the only alternative to accepting gender ideology would be social conservatism, as this is how the issue tends to be framed by transactivists and many others.

So I think this man in a dress at Disneyland appearing to be neither 'in drag' in a mocking way nor gender dysphoric is actually a hugely helpful emblem in terms of where gender criticism and social conservatism part ways and in trying to identify what their differences are and why.

Perhaps it is something to do with the ‘kidult’ phenomenon, where people have children later so they want to enjoy an extended childhood - eg Cosplay = ‘dressing up’ for adults, gaming, live action role play, etc = playing for adults, manga and graphic novels = comics for adults.

It all seem really idyllic- but sexually mature adults should not be getting on the same level as kids, for safeguarding reasons. If you think about Michael Jackson, I was turning that one over in my head for years - he didn’t get to have a childhood because he had to work as a kid, so no wonder he wants to re-live his childhood now and hang out with kids….. but, but, but…… something’s telling me this is off…. Oh no I am just being narrow-minded… he is just shy around other adults….blah, blah, blah…. And didn’t I feel like an idiot when the truth came out? Kinks like ‘furries’ and ‘rubber dolls’ - pornography featuring them, hentai, etc, are really the end result of adults/men wanting to play like kids, not some return to innocence.

So I think it is not just about activists trying to change the world kids first, I think children are being used and fed off by adults wanting to extend their childhoods by trying to get on their level too. Which is a safeguarding risk.

Ahhh OP, this hasn't gone the transphobic way you thought it would. People don't have problems with men in dresses - it's just clothes.

If we want to change social norms that should happen in the adult world first.

Where are all the men wearing dresses just as a fashion choice? To work, and when out with their wives? With this being mainstream and accepted?
There aren't any.

It's not yet normal or acceptable, it's transgressive of the current social norms.

Why is a social change which hasn't occurred in the adult world being focused on children first? That's a serious question because it's the first time I think that the aim has been to normalise something for children first before it's accepted by adults.

Gays did not focus on getting kids at Disney Land to accept them before everyone else had.

Merlin, Nic is a unisex name. My friend and a neighbour both go by Nic and they're female (full name Nicola).

I hadn't really thought of the spoiling the illusion effect, as didn't like people dressed up even as a kid and we never went to Disney.

But i can see how if you truly believed you are going to meet the real life versions of your favourite film you'd be rather pissed off as a five year old boy or girl to discover Cinderella had a beard and Prince Charming was a tiny little woman.

You'd be in tears.

I love all these thoughtful perspectives, I wish there was a 'like' button as I'm nodding along 🙂

Gareth Southgate you've given me lots of food for thought there. There was something about the cutesyness of the attire and the body language that is jarring. It makes me think of the wolf in red riding hood as grandma.

There's something about circumventing people's, and particularly children's radar that's uncomfortable. Mine would have been pinging like mad as a child.

There has been a mention of boys dressing up as Elsa. When my boys dressed up as princesses, they were very much them in a dress, they might have enjoyed the twirlyness but they didn't affect a hyper stereotypical fakeness (cocked head, mannerisms) with it, though not did my daughter.

I can see both sides on this one.

It's actually a bit of a phenomenon that many little boys became Elsa fixated having watched Frozen. Ive certainly seen several little boys wearing Elsa dresses over the years.

Is this Disney's response to that?

The other side is, is there a cut off when the innocence of wearing a dress and full make up as a boy becomes something different as a grown male, and is a children's store really the best place to exhibit that?

I watched the clip. He addresses himself as Nick, a man's name, and says he is a Fairy Godmother assistant. He might be trying to copy the accent from a character in Shrek 2.

I don't think we need to boycott Disneyland over how the fairygodmother assistants' uniforms look like...

Yes GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat I realised afterwards that our posts had crossed!

Brilliantly articulated. Your last paragraph really brings it home.

While I was typing it did cross my mind, would I be as fussed if it was (for example) a young (or old 🤷‍♀️) man secure in his masculinity, larking around as a Disney Fairy Godmother's assistant/greeter. That seems different somehow but I didn't know how to articulate it. The options being mocking misogyny or gender ideology/trans/appropriating womanhood are exactly it. I suppose there's no way to tell if someone secure in their masculinity is a secret AGP but it's a start.

I don't know if you saw my second post, we were possibly typing at the same time but there are some overlapping themes regarding how female employees are expected to present, similar to your Ariel with unshaved armpits 🧜‍♀️

Yes it's a man in a dress.

Never been to a Panto or seen Lily Savage on TV?

this might be my autism talking or it might be more common

What you describe is a really accurate dissection of such fleeting thoughts, but are the true thoughts - the important ones with an emotional component which impact upon my day.

He would definitely spoil my enjoyment for all the reasons you describe- the feeling sorry for him, the illusion being shattered, awkwardness about socially navigating something contentious where we know we are extremely likely to be judged for getting it wrong.

I would definitely be annoyed- it is so bloody expensive and to think how well the princes and princesses are able to stay totally in character- you think, ah well, it takes a lot of money to run something so well - but this unwelcome shot of reality would spoil it.

Within Disneyland parks there are plenty of character actors on stage who I would say occupy the "gay best friend/buttons" type roles.

The male compère during frozen was decidedly on the camper end of the scale. He wore a flamboyant costume with long shorts. Which is give.

Have male fairy godmothers! But have then in a well fitting uniform. Boys can do the dress up princess thing and girls can do the pirate dress up thing. I don't think we need to drag up the greeters though to achieve that.

To me it seems more about the employee's experience rather than the paying customers'

I get that, GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat and I'm struggling with reconciling that too, if I'm honest. I do think it's good to normalise that boys can wear dresses (especially at Disneyland where many will want to) as I think that does help ease some of this gender distress that seems to be causing such misery in increasing numbers of children.

But on the other hand, the point of staff at Disneyland dressing up is to create a magical illusion for children (and adults!) of being in a fantasy world where the cartoons have come to life. Young children come away believing that they met the actual Cinderella, etc, which is pretty special when you're little.

And this might be my autism talking or it might be more common, but for me I think the disconnect is that men wearing dresses is jarring as it breaks that fantasy and brings you back to reality, where I then have to think "ok, so how is one supposed to handle this tricky situation, again?" and so for me, I'm shunted out of the fantasy world I was paying to experience to have this complex social demand placed on me that I need to navigate, which makes what should have been an enjoyable (and bloody expensive) relaxing family holiday far more stressful. I'm generally terrified of saying the wrong thing and being labelled transphobic, so I tend to avoid situations where it might occur nowadays as I find them too stressful to navigate. And then, I have to worry about whether my DC might say something inappropriate, and then if they do, what do I say in response to keep everyone happy without either potentially offending someone who does believe they were born in the wrong body and who experiences great distress around that or misinforming my DC by pretending that I believe that people can be born in the wrong body and that this man in a dress is actually a woman when I don't believe that and don't want my DC to grow up believing that either?

To be honest, I would just avoid that person if I were with my DC as it's such a social minefield and the whole thing evokes so much social anxiety in me (transphobia-phobia, if you will) that I'd rather just live and let live and take them over to the Buzz Lightyear shop instead to avoid the whole conflict.

And also when I saw this, I had to interrogate my own expectations about beauty and ask myself if I felt jarred by it because he doesn't look traditionally flawless like a woman in a dress and makeup playing that role at Disneyland would. Which is challenging, because he's wearing the same as the women and has probably made the same amount of effort with his makeup, but he still doesn't look like they would. Kind of like trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. So it makes me feel a bit sad for him too as his inner image of what he looks like doesn't appear to match his outer image, and even it does, this thought pops into my head anyway as that's how I interpret it because of the beauty standards we are fed as a society. I know that if he's happy looking like that then it's not my business to judge, but then who wants to pay to go to Disneyland to feel sad for the characters?

Also, I do find it quite sexist that Disneyland is purportedly so strict about its female actors' costumes, weight, behaviour, voices etc to maintain the illusion for visitors, but then they seem to ignore all of that when it comes to the male staff who can dress how they like. And not even all male staff, because the 'gender-conforming' men in Prince Charming costumes all have to be perfect too. How would it be if a woman decided they didn't want to shave their armpits and was walking round dressed as Ariel, for example? And if Disney's objection to that is that "it's about the customers' experience", then what is the justification here?

I wonder how much of my discomfort is around the fact that my immediate reaction is that if he isn't being mocking and misogynistic like a drag queen, then he must therefore believe himself to be a woman and be gender dysphoric, because these are the two types of men wearing dresses that we see in society at large (setting aside the kink angle and assuming this isn't anything to do with that). I've come to expect that men in dresses being respectful to women are wanting to be taken seriously as women, so I felt like there's currently no room in the narrative for respectful men who know they're men but who want to wear lovely dresses and fancy makeup. I feel like that's the missing piece of the puzzle that we need as a society at the moment to start to address kids' gender distress, and so I would want to be very cautious about objecting to any man who is modelling that behaviour as it's kind of what gender critical parents are teaching their children is exactly what IS acceptable (or at least should be).

😂 Ahhhh the idea of my father-in-law! I think that would freak out my DH too!

It's potentially worse? He was my dad's dad so her FIL 😂

I have asked her but she said she was in so much pain she just wanted me out she didn't care who did it

Further to my last post I think it also has to do with selling fantasy. It's the whole point of the Disney parks and people want to feel they're meeting the 'real' characters brought to life, as close to their film likeness as possible.

Would Disney let a woman with multiple visible piercings and tattoos occupy the Fairy Godmother/Godmother's assistant role? Presumably they'd be told they needed to remove all the piercings and use heavy duty body make up to cover up the tattoos. Why is it okay for this man to a) inhabit a traditionally female role (are there any male princesses/fairies etc in the Disney oeuvre?) and b) retain his facial hair (there are no female Disney characters who sport male facial hair afaik).

Would they be so accepting of a GNC overweight, 'butch' woman who declined to wear make up? A woman with alopecia who refused to wear a wig? Do they even allow people with visible disabilities to inhabit these interactive character roles? Or are they limited to behind the scenes and kiosk/admin type roles? Would you see a Disney princess in a wheelchair or an amputee for example? I googled and came up blank which seems telling.

Another example would be race and ethnicity. As inclusive as Disney tries to be I'd be very surprised if they did obvious colourblind casting in their parks especially when it comes to Disney princesses and other very recognisable characters. Obviously they've tried to introduce diversity in the oeuvre over the years with some success. Looking online I've yet to come across a dark skinned black woman cast as Jasmine in the parks (although there may be some dubious fake tanning and wigs going on with paler European women 😬). Ditto Belle and any of the other European princesses. Disney princes and so on too.

I'm not really here to discuss the rights and wrongs but I understood Disney are pretty strict about employee physical presentation and grooming in their parks, particularly in customer facing roles. Why have allowances been made for a man to inhabit a traditionally female role when I don't see any evidence of inclusivity for any of the above. Some will say it's great that Disney have begun to subvert tradition but I'm curious why they've started with a white man's demands/preferences.

my grandfather was a gynaecologist and delivered me and my brothers

This really makes my head swim. The idea of one’s own dad looking up and putting his hands inside one’s vagina. 😮 How could your mum stand it?

I really would prefer it if men weren’t encouraged to become beauticians, etc, unless men made up an equal part of their customer-base. As it is, women are overwhelmingly the ones getting their nails done. It annoys me that I keep getting saddled with blokes and no one asks first if I mind, and when they appear, it’s too late to say “I was hoping for a woman”. It’s really awkward. And I usually love the massage part of it - it’s the bit I really go for, but I can’t relax when a man does it. My guard is up.

I wouldn’t say the skill level between the women and men is wildly different, more the stringency about hygiene IME.